My Thoughts on the KJV

[DiamondLady]

Well, I'll help you. I've seen the reports of the KJV being on a 4th grade level and I'll discuss that in a second.

Generally, the KJV is seen to be a 12th grade level text in most studies/grade level tests.

I had forgotten I had sworn off discussing this subject because one can not convince another, no matter the proof, that one version is superior, more inspired, more accurate, there's always excuses for the changed and missing words, missing verses...you get get the gist...than another. When I went to look for the paperwork I remember I threw ALL my studies on this subject in the trash during my last cleaning frenzy because I swore I was done with these arguments. Therefore, I return to my quiet corner on this subject.

 

[annsni]

I had forgotten I had sworn off discussing this subject because one can not convince another, no matter the proof, that one version is superior, more inspired, more accurate, there's always excuses for the changed and missing words, missing verses...you get get the gist...than another. When I went to look for the paperwork I remember I threw ALL my studies on this subject in the trash during my last cleaning frenzy because I swore I was done with these arguments. Therefore, I return to my quiet corner on this subject.

Don't you HATE when you do that (toss things out???).

No, but seriously, the majority of studies shows the KJV to be between the 8th and 12th grade level - absolutely NOT the 4th grade.

 

[Mexdeaf]

The average deaf adult reads at a 4th grade level- yet hand them a KJV and they are lost- figuratively speaking.

 

[Salty]

...as the King James is written on a 4th grade English level. Yes, there are a few outdated words, but even my granddaughter can figure out what they mean without a dictionary ...

I Kings 18:27 What does "pursuing" mean
Matt 9:6 What does "bed" mean
Heb 3:13 What does "exhort" mean

Please share with us what your daughters answers are.

 

[Jim1999]

Certainly not an American 4th grade. Surely! That is very low!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Rippon]

We attended a church up in the mountains of North Carolina while visiting on vacation and the pastor read a verse out of the NIV, then proceeded to use the King James to explain the convoluted way the NIV phrased it. I looked at my husband and we smiled at the silliness of it. Why didn't he just read it out of the KJV?

That would be a first. My American pastor in Korea used the KJV while preaching for decades. But he had to spend a lot of time (too muchin fact ) explaining the archaic wording which cut down on real preaching time. His explanations and rewordings sounded more like the way the NIV or even the NLTse had it in the first place.

Now he primarily uses the NASBU which is a step in the right direction.

 

[DiamondLady]

Don't you HATE when you do that (toss things out???).

Yes, I do because not soon after I toss is when I wish I had! LOL I have to, however, or I'd need another house for my stuff.

 

[Rippon]

Certainly not an American 4th grade. Surely! That is very low!

Cheers,

Jim

Is a Canadian or British 4th grade level at a higher register?

 

[Askjo]

The average deaf adult reads at a 4th grade level- yet hand them a KJV and they are lost- figuratively speaking.

Depend on which State is a better education for deaf students.

 

[Askjo]

Well, I'll help you. I've seen the reports of the KJV being on a 4th grade level and I'll discuss that in a second.

However, here are some quotes from various sites:

"The KJV is written on an 8th to 10th grade level. This has been proven from computer analysis made by Dr. Donald Waite. He ran several books of the KJV through the Right Writer program and found that Genesis 1, Exodus 1, and Romans 8 are on the 8th grade level; Romans 1 and Jude are on the 10th grade level; and Romans 3:1-23 is on the 6th grade level."
http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-understanding-kjv

KJV = 12th grade
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content?page=652502&sp=1003

"King James Version (KJV, 1611) – Reading Level 12.0
Difficult to read due to 17th century English vocabulary and word order."
http://www.biblenh.org/index.php?op...s&catid=20:how-to-choose-and-purchase-a-bible

In my quick study, I've not actually seen a method that results in the KJV having a reading level of 4th grade but instead 5th grade. However, that's useing the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level Indicator which only works off of word and sentence length. It has nothing to do with the actual readability level of the text. I can write a very easy book of short sentences of short words that make no sense and make it come up with a low grade level - but it means nothing to that age group because they just can't understand it.

Generally, the KJV is seen to be a 12th grade level text in most studies/grade level tests.

12 grade level? Some sources said 12 grade level. Some sources said 10 grade level. Some soiurces said less than 10 or 12 grade level. Why target at the KJV for which grade level? Do you read Wall Street Journal newspaper? Do you read People magazine? Read anything than the Bible? The people read them any way. Most people complained about "hard to understand" the KJV. When they are hard to understand the KJV, they have trouble reading. On other hand, when they are hard to understand the Bible, they are hard to obey God.

 

[annsni]

Depend on which State is a better education for deaf students.

Not NY. We just shut down all of the deaf schools.

 

[annsni]

Yes, I do because not soon after I toss is when I wish I had! LOL I have to, however, or I'd need another house for my stuff.

Seriously. I found the COOLEST thing that I really would consider getting for my husband. It's a particular scanner that scans receipts, business cards and paperwork and organizes it for you. We SOOOOOO need that!!

 

[annsni]

12 grade level? Some sources said 12 grade level. Some sources said 10 grade level. Some soiurces said less than 10 or 12 grade level. Why target at the KJV for which grade level? Do you read Wall Street Journal newspaper? Do you read People magazine? Read anything than the Bible? The people read them any way. Most people complained about "hard to understand" the KJV. When they are hard to understand the KJV, they have trouble reading. On other hand, when they are hard to understand the Bible, they are hard to obey God.

Well, it's much easier to obey when you understand the language.

But I'd personally put the KJV at around an 8th grade level - for those kids who are doing normally well in school. We're in a decent school district but then again, when my daughters went to high school after being homeschooled, the teachers were shocked at the books that they had already read - including Shakespeare! So for the homeschooler, I'd drop that a grade or so.

 

[David Lamb]

I never buy into the argument of people that the modern translations are easier to read and understand as the King James is written on a 4th grade English level. Yes, there are a few outdated words, but even my granddaughter can figure out what they mean without a dictionary.

I would agree that it is all too easy to overplay the "not understandable" card re the AV/KJV.

At the same time, I wonder if your granddaughter, or anyone with "fourth grade English" (whatever that means - we have "Years" and "Key Stages" in our schools, and I don't know how they relate to the American grade system) would understand:

that "laid up his carriages" (Isaiah 10.28) means "stored his equipment"

that "I thought to advertise thee" (Ruth 4.4) means "I thought to inform you"

that "we fetched a compass" (Acts 28.13) means "we circled round"

that " Suffer ye thus far" (Luke 22.51) means "Permit even this"

that "superfluity of naughtiness" (James 1.21) means "overflow of evil"

....and many other such phrases.
​

Then there are the individual words that have either changed their meaning since 1611, such as angle (fish-hook), admire (be astonished), prevent (go before), conversation (behaviour), shambles (meat market), occupy (trade), abroad (outside), etc.

I somehow doubt that using a dictionary (unless it was a historical one) would necessarily help. Take my very first example,"laid up his carriages". My dictionary gives seven definitions for the word "carriage":

1. horse-drawn vehicle
2. a railway coach (I expect an American dictionary would have "railroad coach")
3. a wheeled platform
4. a way of holding your body
5. taking and delivering goods
6. a charge for taking and delivering goods
7. a moving part of a machine sujch as a typewriter
​

Not one mention of the KJV meaning.

 

[DiamondLady]

I Kings 18:27 What does "pursuing" mean
Matt 9:6 What does "bed" mean
Heb 3:13 What does "exhort" mean

Please share with us what your daughters answers are.

Salty, It's my GRANDDAUGHTER, who is 11, and I wish I could share with you what her answers would be but I am rarely allowed the privilege to see or speak with her. Her parents are divorced and her mother has custody. I get to see her once a year.

 

[DiamondLady]

I would agree that it is all too easy to overplay the "not understandable" card re the AV/KJV.


I somehow doubt that using a dictionary (unless it was a historical one) would necessarily help.

You guys keep sucking me back in :tongue3:

There is an excellent little book that is inexpensively available from Chick Publications, The King James Bible Companion by David W Daniels. We give them to anyone who is interested in having it at our church. It is a tiny KJV dictionary with over 500 archaic KJV words defined.

For instance from your example carriage...That which is carried, baggage

 

[Mexdeaf]

12 grade level? Some sources said 12 grade level. Some sources said 10 grade level. Some soiurces said less than 10 or 12 grade level. Why target at the KJV for which grade level? Do you read Wall Street Journal newspaper? Do you read People magazine? Read anything than the Bible? The people read them any way. Most people complained about "hard to understand" the KJV. When they are hard to understand the KJV, they have trouble reading. On other hand, when they are hard to understand the Bible, they are hard to obey God.

I have been teaching and preaching to deaf (and hearing) people for over 30 years and even the best educated of the deaf (and many hearing) that I know- saved people with master's degrees and even doctorates- struggle with understanding the 400-year-old language of the KJV. If People magazine or the WSJ were written in King James English they would cease publication quite quickly.

If people do not understand the language of the version of the Bible they have then they should get one that they can understand- a faithful translation- and the more they begin to LIVE it, the more they will begin to UNDERSTAND it. But if they do not first UNDERSTAND it, they will NEVER learn how to live it. That sounds like a contradiction, but it is indeed a fact.

There's nothing magical or hyper-spiritual about 400-year-old language.

 

[Mexdeaf]

You guys keep sucking me back in :tongue3:

There is an excellent little book that is inexpensively available from Chick Publications, The King James Bible Companion by David W Daniels. We give them to anyone who is interested in having it at our church. It is a tiny KJV dictionary with over 500 archaic KJV words defined.

For instance from your example carriage...That which is carried, baggage

Wonderful. So we need to carry another book around so we can understand the Book?

Please don't take this personally, but how is that any different from other religions that tell folks, "The Bible is good, but it is hard to understand. Here is another book that explains it in simple terms" then hands a person 'The Pearl of Great Price' or 'The Book of Mormon' or a Jehovah's Witness book- or tell them that they cannot understand the Bible, so let the priest interpret it for them.

Men died for the right to translate the Bible into a common language so the 'plowman' could read and understand it for themselves not so they would have to carry a dictionary around with it to understand it.

 

[DiamondLady]

Seriously. I found the COOLEST thing that I really would consider getting for my husband. It's a particular scanner that scans receipts, business cards and paperwork and organizes it for you. We SOOOOOO need that!!

I've seen that and looked into purchasing it as my husband and I own a business and have boxes of papers everywhere that we MUST keep, so the IRS says. However, it is VERY expensive! So I decided to pass. I have a regular scanner that could do the same thing, but it's sort of like my Sony Reader which my husband bought me for Christmas a couple of years ago and sits in a drawer, mainly unused....I still like holding a book in my hand, same with paperwork, I can look back through and find what I want without searching the computer for files, not to mention I've had a couple of tragic computer crashes where I've lost everything! (I don't suppose I mentioned I'm the world's worst backerupper :tonofbricks: Anyway, if I could find one that did that for less than the almost $400 they want for the one I saw advertised on tv, I'd probably buy one...and then forget to back it up! LOL

 

[dcorbett]

12 grade level? Some sources said 12 grade level. Some sources said 10 grade level. Some soiurces said less than 10 or 12 grade level. Why target at the KJV for which grade level? Do you read Wall Street Journal newspaper? Do you read People magazine? Read anything than the Bible? The people read them any way. Most people complained about "hard to understand" the KJV. When they are hard to understand the KJV, they have trouble reading. On other hand, when they are hard to understand the Bible, they are hard to obey God.

And my Sophomore year of high school, English class focused on Shakespeare and Elizabethan studies....that is 10th grade. We were EXPECTED to read at that level, no questions asked.

My son credits the fact that due to reading the KJV, he was able to pass the police entry level test as the top one in his testing group. His vocabulary was vastly improved by reading the KJV.

Why would anyone want to go backwards...I aim higher!!!!