Needlessly Loose Translation Choices

[Van]

Should we change the subject to which lexicon (BDAG) is better, or change the subject to the right of bible translation users to study and share?

 

[Yeshua1]

Should we change the subject to which lexicon (BDAG) is better, or change the subject to the right of bible translation users to study and share?

Would you use that lexicon over the Strong concordance to get the meaning of a Greek word for the English translation?

 

[Van]

What does historical grammatical method mean to you? Does it include the presupposition that the literal interpretation is the usual and normal one, and only when that meaning conflicts with other teachings of scripture, should figurative, metaphorical or idiomatic meanings be considered. Give me an example where another lexicon's G2638 entry differs significantly from Strong's.

 

[McCree79]

So here you are repeating the assertion of more meanings. But you did not give any. Rather you reversed the assertion and claiming the meaning was "attack" or "surprise." Those are not historical word meanings found in lexicons.

Here is part of a lexicon:
katalambanó: to lay hold of, seize
Original Word: καταλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katalambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-al-am-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I seize tight hold of, overtake, comprehend
Definition: (a) I seize tight hold of, arrest, catch, capture, appropriate, (b) I overtake, (c) mid. aor: I perceived, comprehended.

Now seize tight and take hold of reflect the same meaning. perceived or comprehend reflects the same meaning as understood. And overtake something is similar to catch up to something. The issue is not really what the word meanings are, but rather should translations consistently translate those meaning.

I cited 2 lexicons that give give broader meaning than you allow. Apparently you read past it or believe if it isnt in Strongs it can't be true. The TDNT also shows a variety of senses of the word.

*even Vine's lists 8 words as meanings. Boxing words into a Strongs only meaning ia a mistake

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[Van]

McCree, why are you manufacturing a non-existent issue? Do you claim post #3 did not translate accurately the Greek word meaning? Which one. The word was not used historically as "attack" nor "surprise" I get it, you like loose translations that alter God's words. I find that lack of faithfulness to God's word appalling. Scholars start by trying to discern what the author intended to say to his original audience. Thus using the meanings of the words in their historical setting is essential.

 

[Van]

Trying to translate word meanings into distinctive English words and phrases is challenging. The use of an Exhaustive Concordance is essential. Lets say the NIV translates G2638 as surprise in 1 Thessalonians 5:4. So our first question is what are the other Greek words the NIV translates as "surprise?" In Acts 3:12 we see G2296 also translated as surprise. But the actual meaning is to marvel or wonder or be amazed. So the overlap, translating two different Greek words using the same English word obliterates whatever distinction God's word may have intended.

 

[McCree79]

McCree, why are you manufacturing a non-existent issue? Do you claim post #3 did not translate accurately the Greek word meaning? Which one. The word was not used historically as "attack" nor "surprise" I get it, you like loose translations that alter God's words. I find that lack of faithfulness to God's word appalling. Scholars start by trying to discern what the author intended to say to his original audience. Thus using the meanings of the words in their historical setting is essential.

Wow....accusing me of liking the altering of God's word just because I showed 2 lexicons that disagree with your limited view of usage. Mounce's Lexicon, the GED, Vine's, and the TDNT all agree the word has broader range of meaning based on context than you say. You wanted someone to debate the renderings of the CSB with you...amd when the do you accuse them of embracing heresy(supporting the altering of God's word)....really?

You have also walked the NASB into the realm of a "Needlessly Loose Translation" as well. Since they use more than the 3 words yoy allow. You acknowledged such when i pointed that out and you said "two wrongs don't make a right". What will you read now? You can't read Hebrew or Greek.

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[Yeshua1]

Wow....accusing me of liking the altering of God's word just because I showed 2 lexicons that disagree with your limited view of usage. Mounce's Lexicon, the GED, Vine's, and the TDNT all agree the word has broader range of meaning based on context than you say. You wanted someone to debate the renderings of the CSB with you...amd when the do you accuse them of embracing heresy(supporting the altering of God's word)....really?

You have also walked the NASB into the realm of a "Needlessly Loose Translation" as well. Since they use more than the 3 words yoy allow. You acknowledged such when i pointed that out and you said "two wrongs don't make a right". What will you read now? You can't read Hebrew or Greek.

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Interesting that all of those Dr and textual experts on the various translation teams did not think to just sit down and look up each Greek word in their Strongs and translate, and not bothering with cognates, variations, participles, grammar, prepositions, article, idioms etc, why did it take them so many years to do their work then?

 

[Yeshua1]

McCree, why are you manufacturing a non-existent issue? Do you claim post #3 did not translate accurately the Greek word meaning? Which one. The word was not used historically as "attack" nor "surprise" I get it, you like loose translations that alter God's words. I find that lack of faithfulness to God's word appalling. Scholars start by trying to discern what the author intended to say to his original audience. Thus using the meanings of the words in their historical setting is essential.

Those translation that took a looser rendering might not be as accurate as a more formal version, but they were not just casually deciding to "adulterize" the word of God!

 

[Van]

Wow...You can't read Hebrew or Greek.

If you want to address the topic, have at it. If you want to ridicule, it is a waste of our time.

 

[Van]

Those translation that took a looser rendering might not be as accurate as a more formal version, but they were not just casually deciding to "adulterize" the word of God!

I provided evidence that the text was not translated according to the historical word meanings. What word would you use to describe that behavior, corruption, adulteration, full on paraphrasing?

 

[Van]

It has been falsely claimed that lexicons provide a broader range of meanings than I provided and supported with a lexicon. But no example was given. Does the word meaning include "attack?" Nope. Or "surprise?" Nope Did one of the two include attack as a synonym of seize? Yes. And is to take hold of is a synonym of seize. Yes. Pay no attention to efforts to change the subject, consider that all the modern translations seem to translate at least some words outside of the historical range of meanings provided by lexicons. And they use the same English words or phrases to translate differing Greek words. The question before us is why, rather than denial of the obvious. Why on the one hand do they say concordance is a goal, and on the other hand provide so many examples of its absence. Should both "to take hold of" and "catch" be translated as "seize?" There seems to be plenty of on topic issues to address.

 

[Van]

Here take hold and catch are rendered seize.
Mar 9:18
“Whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams at the mouth, grinds his teeth, and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive it out, but they couldn’t.”
Jhn 1:5
That light shines in the darkness, and yet the darkness did not understand it.
Jhn 8:3
Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman seized in adultery, making her stand in the center.
Jhn 8:4
“Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was seized in the act of committing adultery.
Jhn 12:35
Jesus answered, “The light will be with you only a little longer. Walk while you have the light so that darkness doesn’t seize you. The one who walks in darkness doesn’t know where he’s going.
Act 4:13
When they observed the boldness of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and recognized that they had been with Jesus.
Act 10:34
Peter began to speak: “Now I truly understand that God doesn’t show favoritism,
Act 25:25
“I understood that he had not done anything deserving of death, but when he himself appealed to the Emperor, I decided to send him.
Rom 9:30
What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have seized righteousness — namely the righteousness that comes from faith.
1Co 9:24
Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to seize the prize.
Eph 3:18
may be able to understand with all the saints what is the length and width, height and depth of God’s love,
Phl 3:12
Not that I have already reached the goal or am already perfect, but I make every effort to seize it because I also have been seizedf by Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13
Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself to have seized it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
1Th 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the dark, for this day to seize you like a thief.

The only verse where the substitution obviously does not work is 1 Th 5:4. Catch is better as a literal translation, but better yet is surprise with a footnote "Lit catch".

 

[McCree79]

If you want to address the topic, have at it. If you want to ridicule, it is a waste of our time.

It was not ridicule. But you edited my post to make it look like such. Very dishonest edit sir. Shameful

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[McCree79]

It has been falsely claimed that lexicons provide a broader range of meanings than I provided and supported with a lexicon. But no example was given. Does the word meaning include "attack?" Nope. Or "surprise?"

You know you picked both of those words up from a LEXICON I quoted....right?


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[Van]

More "you, you and you" posts addressing the poster and not the topic. Lets consider rendering understood as grasp because that word is closer to the core meaning of the Greek word in the inspired text.
Mar 9:18
“Whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams at the mouth, grinds his teeth, and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive it out, but they couldn’t.”
Jhn 1:5
That light shines in the darkness, and yet the darkness did not grasp it.
Jhn 8:3
Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman seized in adultery, making her stand in the center.
Jhn 8:4
“Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was seized in the act of committing adultery.
Jhn 12:35
Jesus answered, “The light will be with you only a little longer. Walk while you have the light so that darkness doesn’t seize you. The one who walks in darkness doesn’t know where he’s going.
Act 4:13
When they observed the boldness of Peter and John and grasped that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and recognized that they had been with Jesus.
Act 10:34
Peter began to speak: “Now I trulygrasp that God doesn’t show favoritism,
Act 25:25
“I grasped that he had not done anything deserving of death, but when he himself appealed to the Emperor, I decided to send him.
Rom 9:30
What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have seized righteousness — namely the righteousness that comes from faith.
1Co 9:24
Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to seize the prize.
Eph 3:18
may be able to grasp with all the saints what is the length and width, height and depth of God’s love,
Phl 3:12
Not that I have already reached the goal or am already perfect, but I make every effort to seize it because I also have been seizedf by Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13
Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself to have seized it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
1Th 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the dark, for this day to suddenly seize you like a thief.

Note that if suddenly is added for clarity and italicized to indicate a translator addition, the meaning comes through using the historical word meaning.

 

[Van]

Unfortunately, the muddle goes very deep into the translation. For example the NASB translates several Greek words into the same English word, using "seize" to translate at least five other Greek words in addition to G2638! And when you go through all these overlaps, and change "seize" into other synonyms of the other Greek word meanings, you uncover many more overlaps with catch, or take hold of, and so forth.

 

[Yeshua1]

I provided evidence that the text was not translated according to the historical word meanings. What word would you use to describe that behavior, corruption, adulteration, full on paraphrasing?

No, rather they were trying to convey what the original intent means to us today, and at times they missed the mark, but did not intentionally set up to make a bad translation!

 

[Yeshua1]

Unfortunately, the muddle goes very deep into the translation. For example the NASB translates several Greek words into the same English word, using "seize" to translate at least five other Greek words in addition to G2638! And when you go through all these overlaps, and change "seize" into other synonyms of the other Greek word meanings, you uncover many more overlaps with catch, or take hold of, and so forth.

So the Nasb missed the mark also?

 

[Yeshua1]

You know you picked both of those words up from a LEXICON I quoted....right?


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I thought Dr Van only trusted and used Strong definitions though?