New meaning for old verses

God does choose man for his purposes. You will not find God choosing someone TO salvation, though.

God chose Jonah, too. He could have avoided quite a bit by listening to God in the first place. I don't doubt if Saul would not have obeyed (he very well could have disobeyed) he would have stayed blind permanently.

 

LOL!!!!

Oopsie.

 

Npet,

Is that text in the Bible or did you just invent it?

 

It's in MY Bible. I don't know if it's in webdog's. Here's the NKJV version:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Doh!!

Those inconvenient little facts, huh?

 

Has anyone else noticed that when you highlight bits and pieces, you can pretty much make the Bible say what you want it to say? I'm not telling who I agree/disagree with....I'm just saying it is interesting how any side can sound right, based on what little phrase or word you highlight. I've noticed that in threads recently.

 

Now you are taking isolated incidents (choosing disciples) and applying that to individual salvation.

God also chose Judas and Pharaoh, too. Did He choose them for destruction? That's determinism.

 

Here's a link where a man has briefly summarized JE's definition of free will.
http://reformedperspectives.org/newfiles/tul_tchividjian/TH.Tchividjian.edwards.free.will.introduction.html

Of course, you can read JE's book yourself, but I thought this shorter article might assist you right now.

Here's a short quote from the article:

And according to the first bolded sentence, that's what makes our wills "free". We are free to do what we desire the most. No one is coerced to sin, we all freely sin because at the moment of our sin, the desire to-sin is greater than the desire not-to-sin.
And the second bolded sentence describes why we are not "free" like the non-Calvinists describe "free-will".
We cannot according to our sinful nature, desire that which is right and holy(i.e. repentance) until we have been given a new nature which gives us new desires.
We are not free to choose to be God's friends until we have been given a new nature.
So in summary, JE's point about the freedom of the will, is that prior to regeneration, our will is only free to do that which our sinful nature desires. It is not however free to choose to desire Christ until God's Spirit graciously gives us a new nature and new desires.

I hope at least some of this makes sense to you.
If you read the article linked, I think it will really help you in your pursuit of understanding.

 

No. We are chosen...through, not "to".

 

Yeah, that's true. But even then it takes an a-priori belief in order to make one of the highlights mean what you want it to mean. For example, I highlighted "chosen to salvation". No a-priori position is necessary to see that it contradicts webdog's assertion that God has never chosen anyone to salvation. There it is in black and white, "chosen to salvation".

However, when you highlight "belief of the truth", it does not change anything UNLESS you approach that text with the a-priori assumption that we believe the truth of our own free will. The text actually implies the opposite, that we were chosen to salvation THROUGH belief in the truth TO WHICH HE CALLED us. It was all God, and none of us.

So it takes more than a highlight to make the text mean what you want it to mean.

 

To all BB participants. As webdog pointed out, the Bible is in error. The following word "to" in bold should be changed to "through". Please make a note of it, and change your Bibles at your soonest convenience.

 

Npet,

1. I stumbled into this lastnight as I was reading Joel 2:

And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

2. Notice, the Lord calls those who eventually calls on Him for salvation.

 

Wow. Talk about twisting...

God has called mankind to believe in Christ. Man can either believe, or not believe. We believe...we are chosen "in Christ". Very simple, but it is amazing the confusion that stems from twisting simple statments to mean something more complex that the text is not saying.

 

To all BB participants, npet like to play Al Gore and leave out the simple truths.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I think dane's above post applies to this one...

 

Yes, you twisted the text. The text does not say that that you believe first, after which you are chosen. You brought that assumption to the text, which is why you believe your highlight makes the meaning different than the simplicity of "chosen to salvation".

Like I said, "chosen to salvation" is there in black and white. "through belief in the truth" is also there in black and white, but it doesn't say, "you are chosen to salvation AFTER you believe the truth of your own free will". You only see it that way because that's what you already believe.

By the way, it first says, THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT. I notice you didn't highlight that part, since we don't get sanctified of the Spirit by our own free will.
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