New meaning for old verses

Joe Thomas was chosen to play football for the Cleveland Browns through the NFL draft. You do not have your "to" without the "through" coming first.

I didn't ignore through sanctification of the Spirit. The Spirit is what draws and convicts us to believe.

 

Analogies prove nothing. But yours works pretty well against you. He was drafted. You don't get drafted of your own free will.

 

"through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth" is meaningless if one is chosen to salvation before these take place. Faith is pointless, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions.

 

He was drafted due to a process. Same with salvation. There is a process..."believe and you will be saved".

 

It sounds to me like you are both right.....aaahhh, the mysteries of God. Let's not try and figure out too much, since it isn't really going anywhere. But let's just enjoy that we are His!

 

Back to the Biblical text, which is what matters. Yes, it is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Now, you can view that one way or another. Do we believe of our own free will? You say, "yes", I say, "no". Do we believe because God changed the inclination of our hearts? I say, "yes", you say, "no".

But the text doesn't say either. As I have pointed out multiple times, you have added your own a-priori belief to the text in order to make your point. The text doesn't say we believe of our own free will, and it doesn't say we believe because God changed us. But it DOES say we are chosen to salvation, which contradicts your earlier assertion.

 

So we must go outside of this particular text to answer the questions raised. I'm loving it!

 

Anyone else care to comment?

 

Yes, or you can simply accept "chosen to salvation" to mean what it says, which means we couldn't have believed of our own free will -- we were chosen to salvation, which we got through His call which led to sanctification of the Spirit (regeneration) and belief in the truth.

Regardless, I am so amused (not necessarily in a positive way) by this kind of argument. There must be some kind of spiritual blindness going on, because in any other rational argument among mature adults, this is how it should have gone:

"God never choses to salvation."

Quote from the Bible "You have been chosen to salvation".

"I stand corrected."

That seems so simple to me, yet it never seems to happen. Just look at the wine thread. That was chock full of clear proof texts, yet those who were proved wrong could never simply assent to the facts.

 

I got you, for the initial objection has been proven wrong by the biblical text. You're correct.

 

Are we doing anything wrong against God in debating among ourselves?

 

I was meaning AS you study. I was simply saying look at both sides of coin, since you didn't understand the non-cal regarding those same scriptures it is necessary to study both groups to find the truth for yourself. That was all I was saying.

No non-Cal denies election, they just deny the Calvinistic version of it.
Even the Calvinists admit that God did not choose people arbitrarily but that He had His own Criteria in that electing/choosing. So the difference between us regarding election is that they state we don't know what it was, and we state scripture tells us. But BOTH groups believe God elected to Himself a people from the foundation of the world. (maybe a little simplistic but it is the essence of the argument)

Yes, and you are right. Thus God's election does have something to with our choice. It do not advocate our choice is the sole reason God chose us but that it does play a part. Thus it was God's soveriegn right to determine a person could be saved if they had blond hair and blue eyes, or even by faith in Christ.

As I stated before, I will always speak of that which I know and understand but do not state all I know and understand are absolutely true. Yet what else can I say but what I believe. So I encourage YOU to study both sides to find the truth for yourself. I am excited for you in the part of your walk of faith and grace.

You 'grow' girl ! :laugh:

 

Iron sharpens Iron brother.

BUT --- If we do it in a spirit of exaultedness or condesending manner, as though we are greater, better, more holy, more godly, than other believers who are trying to live, love, and serve the One True God. I believe it is then we fall into sin and make an honest exchange of views into a battle ground of faith.

In short our attitude determines the nature of thing we persue amoungst ourselves.

 

Well put. :thumbs:

 

Yes He does. He has chosen those who meet the very criteria in which He sets forth immediately after saying "you have been chosen to salvation".

You know people would believe you more often if you didn't cut the verse in half so that the rest of it can not be seen.

'You have been chosen to salavation' is indisputable, but HOW we were chosen is what directly follows.

We are chosen by the work of the Holy Spirit (convicting us of sin, His righteousness, and the Judgment to come) and choice (to believe it). Thus election is does have some basis in our choice.

:laugh: Though it is my view - you know I'm just hasseling you.

 

Amy, you might not know all the big words and "ism's" that describe what you're talking about, but you sure do have a good grasp of the issues. Keep studying and watch how it all falls in place!

 

Like one Primitive Baptist said :

"Free Will" is a misnomer. John 1:13 - "Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Humans
have never had any choice or will in either their NATURAL or their
SPIRITUAL births. Even your timely choices are within boundaries
and defined perimeters.

 

"I stand corrected" in that we don't work to earn salvation, but are chosen to receive it. This in no way refutes what I have said about how that happens, however. Anybody can pull part of a verse to prove what they wish. The Bible has "...there is no God". An atheist can argue the way you are.

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This bold word changes nothing. Its still chosen TO Salvation and though sanctification of the Spirit.