New meaning for old verses

[Amy.G]

Amy, you might not know all the big words and "ism's" that describe what you're talking about, but you sure do have a good grasp of the issues. Keep studying and watch how it all falls in place!

Thanks J.D.

I'll have to study up on all those ism's though. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

I was thinking the same thing.

...then both you and James missed "belief in the truth"?

Selective reading, eh?

 

[TCGreek]

...then both you and James missed "belief in the truth"?

Selective reading, eh?

Webdog,

1. This text corresponds quite well with Acts 13:48:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed."

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." (2 Thess 2:13)

2. Notice the similarities.

 

[Jarthur001]

...then both you and James missed "belief in the truth"?

Selective reading, eh?

why would you say this? Is it because I do not see it your way?

No matter how many words you highlight, the text still reads "to salvation".

Dont get mad at me. I didn't write it.

You could say...."of the Spirit"....just as you do with "In Christ"....in this verse

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It still means the same thing. Just as "in Christ" in quotes...bold...underlined....boxed in...in red type.....whatever you want....that changes nothing. Read the Greek and you will know why I say this.

 

[Allan]

Webdog,

1. This text corresponds quite well with Acts 13:48:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed."

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." (2 Thess 2:13)

2. Notice the similarities.

Yes, the similarities ARE there.
1. God predetemined to save those who would believe the Truth.
2. God predetermined salvation through the work of the Holy and us believing that Truth.

Both state that God had alread decided salvation will be to those who believe the truth He sent forth in the person of Jesus and the work He fulfilled as well as accomplished throug the ministry of His Spirit (to convict the world of sin, His righteousness, and the Judgment to come).

 

[Allan]

Read the Greek and you will know why I say this.

I've read it, and I still can't understand why you don't see the rest of what the passage is saying.

God determined salvation to those of faith.
I agree that God decided of His own pleasure whom He will save.
But God determined in His own pleasure and purpose that He will save those who believe the Truth He set forth in CHrist through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

You are only taking half the verse and leaving the other half, when both bring the truth to light.

God soveriegnly choose who He would, and Man is responsible with what God gives.

Both fit well scripturally as to who and why they are chosen by God as far as I can see and brings no harm to the texual understanding of the passage.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, the similarities ARE there.
1. God predetemined to save those who would believe the Truth.
2. God predetermined salvation through the work of the Holy and us believing that Truth.

Both state that God had alread decided salvation will to those who believe the truth He sent forth in the person of Jesus and the work He fulfilled as well as accomplished.

Well, here's another corresponding text:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

How should we understanding election in light of the foreknowledge of God?

 

[webdog]

I've read it, and I still can't understand why you don't see the rest of what the passage is saying.

God determined salvation to those of faith.
I agree that God decided of His own pleasure whom He will save.
But God determined in His own pleasure and purpose that He will save those who believe the Truth He set forth in CHrist through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

You are only taking half the verse and leaving the other half, when both bring the truth to light.

God soveriegnly choose who He would, and Man is responsible with what God gives.

Both fit well scripturally as to who and why they are chosen by God as far as I can see and brings no harm to the texual understanding of the passage.

Allan...you know you only need half a verse to explain Truth

 

[webdog]

Well, here's another corresponding text:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

How should we understanding election in light of the foreknowledge of God?

The "elect" in this verse are the jews who have been scattered abroad.

 

[Jarthur001]

I've read it, and I still can't understand why you don't see the rest of what the passage is saying.

God determined salvation to those of faith.
I agree that God decided of His own pleasure whom He will save.
But God determined in His own pleasure and purpose that He will save those who believe the Truth He set forth in CHrist through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

You are only taking half the verse and leaving the other half, when both bring the truth to light.

God soveriegnly choose who He would, and Man is responsible with what God gives.

Both fit well scripturally as to who and why they are chosen by God as far as I can see and brings no harm to the texual understanding of the passage.

I never deny mans responsibility. This is Classic Calvinism my friend.

What many...(i used the word many for you)...non Calvinism can not get by, is they see election as God making Robots. This is in no way the case.

 

[TCGreek]

The "elect" in this verse are the jews who have been scattered abroad.

That's besides the point. Attempt an answer at the question asked.

 

[webdog]

That's besides the point. Attempt an answer at the question asked.

It's not besides the point. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Allan]

Well, here's another corresponding text:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

How should we understanding election in light of the foreknowledge of God?

The same as I previously stated.

All things operate in accordance with Gods pleasure, plan, and purpose (His will) and so they were chosen according to that which He had already determined...

What is most funny to me is that many men clain to know how God knew anything that He knew (or knew before it was set forth). All we can know is that God forknew and beyond that is pure speculation as to what and how God knew what God knew.

 

[Amy.G]

The same as I previously stated.

All things operate in accordance with Gods pleasure, plan, and purpose (His will) and so they were chosen according to that which He had already determined...

What is most funny to me is that many men clain to know how God knew anything that He knew (or knew before it was set forth). All we can know is that God forknew and beyond that is pure speculation as to what and how God knew what God knew.

So, to say that God foreknew who would believe and elected accordingly would just be a guess.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan...you know you only need half a verse to explain Truth

That is not the truth. Why would you say this?

I know you have a problem with "to salvation" in this passage.

What part of this passage do you feel I do not believe and maybe I can show you I do not?

 

[Allan]

I never deny mans responsibility. This is Classic Calvinism my friend.

Your so sweet to think of me. :laugh: *cough* That wasn't me!

What many...(i used the word many for you)...non Calvinism can not get by, is they see election as God making Robots. This is in no way the case.

Yes, but classic Calvinism denies ability within mans resposibilty thus no real responsibilty exists.

If man can not choose then no condemnation rests upon man who according to scripture has chosen rebellion.

Even you attest that man can not choose God without God frist completely changing the person so they can not deny Him. Man is not choosing my friend He is only following the predeterminded response placed in Him by God.

 

[webdog]

That is not the truth. Why would you say this?

I know you have a problem with "to salvation" in this passage.

What part of this passage do you feel I do not believe and maybe I can show you I do not?

I don't have a problem with "to salvation". I have a problem with pulling this one phrase out of the entire verse and building a theology on it.

 

[webdog]

Yes, but classic Calvinism denies ability within mans resposibilty thus no real responsibilty exists.

If man can not choose then no condemnation rests upon man who according to scripture has chosen rebellion.

Even you attest that man can not choose God with God completely changing the person so they can not deny Him. Man is not choosing my friend He is only following the predeterminded response placed in Him by God.

Amen :thumbs:

This "choice" is in name only.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, but classic Calvinism denies ability within mans resposibilty thus no real responsibilty exists.

If man can not choose then no condemnation rests upon man who according to scripture has chosen rebellion.

Even you attest that man can not choose God with God completely changing the person so they can not deny Him. Man is not choosing my friend He is only following the predeterminded response placed in Him by God.

Oh but you are wrong my friend. In fact you live this way now.

Let me ask you. Lets say that you had not a clue that in your great state in which you live there was a Law that says you cannot murder. Lets go on to say that you murder. When the state police comes to pick you up, will he then let you go after you say...."But Mr. Copper...I didn't know!! Its not fair I tell you. How can I be guilty if I didn't know? I can not obey the Law if I do not know the Law. Now I demand you let me go. Its not fair."

Will he let you go? Are you not guilty?

Is your great state unjust?

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't have a problem with "to salvation". I have a problem with pulling this one phrase out of the entire verse and building a theology on it.

And what part of the passage do I deny as you said I did?