New meaning for old verses

[webdog]

Yes, you twisted the text. The text does not say that that you believe first, after which you are chosen. You brought that assumption to the text, which is why you believe your highlight makes the meaning different than the simplicity of "chosen to salvation".

Like I said, "chosen to salvation" is there in black and white. "through belief in the truth" is also there in black and white, but it doesn't say, "you are chosen to salvation AFTER you believe the truth of your own free will". You only see it that way because that's what you already believe.

Joe Thomas was chosen to play football for the Cleveland Browns through the NFL draft. You do not have your "to" without the "through" coming first.

I didn't ignore through sanctification of the Spirit. The Spirit is what draws and convicts us to believe.

 

[npetreley]

Joe Thomas was chosen to play football for the Cleveland Browns through the NFL draft. You do not have your "to" without the "through" coming first.

Analogies prove nothing. But yours works pretty well against you. He was drafted. You don't get drafted of your own free will.

 

[webdog]

"through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth" is meaningless if one is chosen to salvation before these take place. Faith is pointless, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions.

 

[webdog]

Analogies prove nothing. But yours works pretty well against you. He was drafted. You don't get drafted of your own free will.

He was drafted due to a process. Same with salvation. There is a process..."believe and you will be saved".

 

[dan e.]

It sounds to me like you are both right.....aaahhh, the mysteries of God. Let's not try and figure out too much, since it isn't really going anywhere. But let's just enjoy that we are His!

 

[npetreley]

He was drafted due to a process. Same with salvation. There is a process..."believe and you will be saved".

Back to the Biblical text, which is what matters. Yes, it is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Now, you can view that one way or another. Do we believe of our own free will? You say, "yes", I say, "no". Do we believe because God changed the inclination of our hearts? I say, "yes", you say, "no".

But the text doesn't say either. As I have pointed out multiple times, you have added your own a-priori belief to the text in order to make your point. The text doesn't say we believe of our own free will, and it doesn't say we believe because God changed us. But it DOES say we are chosen to salvation, which contradicts your earlier assertion.

 

[TCGreek]

Back to the Biblical text, which is what matters. Yes, it is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Now, you can view that one way or another. Do we believe of our own free will? You say, "yes", I say, "no". Do we believe because God changed the inclination of our hearts? I say, "yes", you say, "no".

But the text doesn't say either. As I have pointed out multiple times, you have added your own a-priori belief to the text in order to make your point. The text doesn't say we believe of our own free will, and it doesn't say we believe because God changed us. But it DOES say we are chosen to salvation, which contradicts your earlier assertion.

So we must go outside of this particular text to answer the questions raised. I'm loving it!

 

[Debby in Philly]

Whether all this is true or not, it does not make any difference in what we are supposed to do as believers. And that is, "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature."

God may know who the elect are (if there is an elect), but we are not privy to the list. So we have to give the Gospel to everyone, and see who the Holy Spirit convicts. Election has been used in the past as a excuse for not preaching the Gospel, since it was believed those "who will be saved will be saved," with or without our help.

So why waste time debating it? Get out there and preach the Gospel to all, and let God sort 'em out!

Anyone else care to comment?

 

[npetreley]

So we must go outside of this particular text to answer the questions raised. I'm loving it!

Yes, or you can simply accept "chosen to salvation" to mean what it says, which means we couldn't have believed of our own free will -- we were chosen to salvation, which we got through His call which led to sanctification of the Spirit (regeneration) and belief in the truth.

Regardless, I am so amused (not necessarily in a positive way) by this kind of argument. There must be some kind of spiritual blindness going on, because in any other rational argument among mature adults, this is how it should have gone:

"God never choses to salvation."

Quote from the Bible "You have been chosen to salvation".

"I stand corrected."

That seems so simple to me, yet it never seems to happen. Just look at the wine thread. That was chock full of clear proof texts, yet those who were proved wrong could never simply assent to the facts.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, or you can simply accept "chosen to salvation" to mean what it says, which means we couldn't have believed of our own free will -- we were chosen to salvation, which we got through His call which led to sanctification of the Spirit (regeneration) and belief in the truth.

Regardless, I am so amused (not necessarily in a positive way) by this kind of argument. There must be some kind of spiritual blindness going on, because in any other rational argument among mature adults, this is how it should have gone:

"God never choses to salvation."

Quote from the Bible "You have been chosen to salvation".

"I stand corrected."

That seems so simple to me, yet it never seems to happen. Just look at the wine thread. That was chock full of clear proof texts, yet those who were proved wrong could never simply assent to the facts.

I got you, for the initial objection has been proven wrong by the biblical text. You're correct.

 

[TCGreek]

Anyone else care to comment?

Are we doing anything wrong against God in debating among ourselves?

 

[Allan]

Allan, if I didn't have a teachable heart, I wouldn't even be looking into this. I would just stay put on the free-will side.
I have already been on one side of the coin for my entire Christian life. I am now exploring the other side.

I was meaning AS you study. I was simply saying look at both sides of coin, since you didn't understand the non-cal regarding those same scriptures it is necessary to study both groups to find the truth for yourself. That was all I was saying.

Your post shows many elements of election

No non-Cal denies election, they just deny the Calvinistic version of it.
Even the Calvinists admit that God did not choose people arbitrarily but that He had His own Criteria in that electing/choosing. So the difference between us regarding election is that they state we don't know what it was, and we state scripture tells us. But BOTH groups believe God elected to Himself a people from the foundation of the world. (maybe a little simplistic but it is the essence of the argument)

Actually what I see is those that did not believe were not given to Christ by the Father. (vs. 37)

Yes, and you are right. Thus God's election does have something to with our choice. It do not advocate our choice is the sole reason God chose us but that it does play a part. Thus it was God's soveriegn right to determine a person could be saved if they had blond hair and blue eyes, or even by faith in Christ.

As I stated before, I will always speak of that which I know and understand but do not state all I know and understand are absolutely true. Yet what else can I say but what I believe. So I encourage YOU to study both sides to find the truth for yourself. I am excited for you in the part of your walk of faith and grace.

You 'grow' girl ! :laugh:

 

[Allan]

Are we doing anything wrong against God in debating among ourselves?

Iron sharpens Iron brother.

BUT --- If we do it in a spirit of exaultedness or condesending manner, as though we are greater, better, more holy, more godly, than other believers who are trying to live, love, and serve the One True God. I believe it is then we fall into sin and make an honest exchange of views into a battle ground of faith.

In short our attitude determines the nature of thing we persue amoungst ourselves.

 

[TCGreek]

Iron sharpens Iron brother.

BUT --- If we do it in a spirit of exaultedness or condesending manner, as though we are greater, better, more holy, more godly, than other believers who are trying to live, love, and serve the One True God. I believe it is then we fall into sin and make an honest exchange of views into a battle ground of faith.

In short our attitude determines the nature of thing we persue amoungst ourselves.

Well put. :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

"God never choses to salvation."

Yes He does. He has chosen those who meet the very criteria in which He sets forth immediately after saying "you have been chosen to salvation".

Quote from the Bible "You have been chosen to salvation".

You know people would believe you more often if you didn't cut the verse in half so that the rest of it can not be seen.

'You have been chosen to salavation' is indisputable, but HOW we were chosen is what directly follows.

2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

We are chosen by the work of the Holy Spirit (convicting us of sin, His righteousness, and the Judgment to come) and choice (to believe it). Thus election is does have some basis in our choice.

"I stand corrected."

:laugh: Though it is my view - you know I'm just hasseling you.

 

[J.D.]

You give him choices, but never outside of your will and authority as his father. Otherwise, you are not in control of your children.
Of course, this all goes out the window when he get his driver's license! :laugh:


I don't know why some are saved late in life. This happened to my father.

The point is that if humans had total free will, that must mean that God just set things in motion and took His hands off the wheel and just let whatever was going to happen, happen. Sort of like the big bang theory.
In order for Him to predestine things, His will must override the will of others.

Amy, you might not know all the big words and "ism's" that describe what you're talking about, but you sure do have a good grasp of the issues. Keep studying and watch how it all falls in place!

 

[pinoybaptist]

Amy, you might not know all the big words and "ism's" that describe what you're talking about, but you sure do have a good grasp of the issues. Keep studying and watch how it all falls in place!

Like one Primitive Baptist said :

"Free Will" is a misnomer. John 1:13 - "Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Humans
have never had any choice or will in either their NATURAL or their
SPIRITUAL births. Even your timely choices are within boundaries
and defined perimeters.

 

[webdog]

Yes, or you can simply accept "chosen to salvation" to mean what it says, which means we couldn't have believed of our own free will -- we were chosen to salvation, which we got through His call which led to sanctification of the Spirit (regeneration) and belief in the truth.

Regardless, I am so amused (not necessarily in a positive way) by this kind of argument. There must be some kind of spiritual blindness going on, because in any other rational argument among mature adults, this is how it should have gone:

"God never choses to salvation."

Quote from the Bible "You have been chosen to salvation".

"I stand corrected."

That seems so simple to me, yet it never seems to happen. Just look at the wine thread. That was chock full of clear proof texts, yet those who were proved wrong could never simply assent to the facts.

"I stand corrected" in that we don't work to earn salvation, but are chosen to receive it. This in no way refutes what I have said about how that happens, however. Anybody can pull part of a verse to prove what they wish. The Bible has "...there is no God". An atheist can argue the way you are.

 

[Jarthur001]

To all BB participants, npet like to play Al Gore and leave out the simple truths.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This bold word changes nothing. Its still chosen TO Salvation and though sanctification of the Spirit.

 

[Amy.G]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This bold word changes nothing. Its still chosen TO Salvation and though sanctification of the Spirit.

I was thinking the same thing.