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New meaning for old verses

Amy.G

New Member
Well, it seems I don't know what free will means or what predestination means.

I don't know anything about open theism. Why does everything have to have some sort of clinical name?

All I know is, if God has a plan, He will bring it pass somehow. Call it theism, deism or any ism you like. :laugh:

I look at Paul as an example. I doubt seriously if being blinded by God for 3 days was in his plans as he walked to Damascus. God chose Paul and I don't think he asked for his permission.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
God does choose man for his purposes. You will not find God choosing someone TO salvation, though.

God chose Jonah, too. He could have avoided quite a bit by listening to God in the first place. I don't doubt if Saul would not have obeyed (he very well could have disobeyed) he would have stayed blind permanently.
 

npetreley

New Member
webdog said:
God does choose man for his purposes. You will not find God choosing someone TO salvation, though.

LOL!!!!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Oopsie.
 

npetreley

New Member
TCGreek said:
Npet,

Is that text in the Bible or did you just invent it?

It's in MY Bible. I don't know if it's in webdog's. Here's the NKJV version:

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
npetreley said:
LOL!!!!



Oopsie.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Doh!!

Those inconvenient little facts, huh?
 

Amy.G

New Member
webdog said:
God does choose man for his purposes. You will not find God choosing someone TO salvation, though.

God chose Jonah, too. He could have avoided quite a bit by listening to God in the first place. I don't doubt if Saul would not have obeyed (he very well could have disobeyed) he would have stayed blind permanently.
There is nothing in scripture that implies that Paul became a Christian because he was afraid he might be blind permanantly.
We can play what if all day long, but the fact is that God chose Paul, who did exactly what God had planned long ago before Paul ever existed.

Jesus said to the disciples, "I chose you, you did not choose Me."

If God makes plans from eternity past, He must DO things to make those plans come to pass, otherwise it's just a roll of the dice. No?
 

dan e.

New Member
Has anyone else noticed that when you highlight bits and pieces, you can pretty much make the Bible say what you want it to say? I'm not telling who I agree/disagree with....I'm just saying it is interesting how any side can sound right, based on what little phrase or word you highlight. I've noticed that in threads recently.
 

Amy.G

New Member
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Could it be interpreted this way:

Sancification of the Spirit means the Spirit of God has first set you apart, then you believe the truth.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Amy.G said:
There is nothing in scripture that implies that Paul became a Christian because he was afraid he might be blind permanantly.
We can play what if all day long, but the fact is that God chose Paul, who did exactly what God had planned long ago before Paul ever existed.

Jesus said to the disciples, "I chose you, you did not choose Me."

If God makes plans from eternity past, He must DO things to make those plans come to pass, otherwise it's just a roll of the dice. No?
Now you are taking isolated incidents (choosing disciples) and applying that to individual salvation.

God also chose Judas and Pharaoh, too. Did He choose them for destruction? That's determinism.
 

Isaiah40:28

New Member
Amy.G said:
I can't speak to what WD views as free will, but I what I meant was that free will exists and predistination exists. Predestination implies that God's will must override man's will, yet we still have a free will. I cannot explain how this works, yet it's clear in God's word that they are both at work.

I do not know the definition of free will according to Jonathan Edwards.

Me confused?? :laugh:

:)

Here's a link where a man has briefly summarized JE's definition of free will.
http://reformedperspectives.org/newfiles/tul_tchividjian/TH.Tchividjian.edwards.free.will.introduction.html

Of course, you can read JE's book yourself, but I thought this shorter article might assist you right now.

Here's a short quote from the article:
We choose according to that which we desire most. The problem, however, as we noted earlier, is that because the fall was total and not partial, and as a result we are all dead in our trespasses and sins desiring only sin by nature, what seems to us to be right, proper, and good is often wrong, improper, and bad. Sin has made us God-haters at the core of our souls so that we are all by nature at enmity with God. In order for us to do what God would have us to do, we need to be who God wants us to be. And in order for us to be who God wants us to be, we need new natures. And because we cannot change our own nature, no more than we can push a bus while we are riding in it, we are in need of the sovereign hand of grace to change it for us. We cannot do what pleases God because we will not do what pleases God. And the reason we will not is because we don’t want to.
And according to the first bolded sentence, that's what makes our wills "free". We are free to do what we desire the most. No one is coerced to sin, we all freely sin because at the moment of our sin, the desire to-sin is greater than the desire not-to-sin.
And the second bolded sentence describes why we are not "free" like the non-Calvinists describe "free-will".
We cannot according to our sinful nature, desire that which is right and holy(i.e. repentance) until we have been given a new nature which gives us new desires.
We are not free to choose to be God's friends until we have been given a new nature.
So in summary, JE's point about the freedom of the will, is that prior to regeneration, our will is only free to do that which our sinful nature desires. It is not however free to choose to desire Christ until God's Spirit graciously gives us a new nature and new desires.

I hope at least some of this makes sense to you.
If you read the article linked, I think it will really help you in your pursuit of understanding.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Amy.G said:
Could it be interpreted this way:

Sancification of the Spirit means the Spirit of God has first set you apart, then you believe the truth.
No. We are chosen...through, not "to".
 

Amy.G

New Member
webdog said:
Now you are taking isolated incidents (choosing disciples) and applying that to individual salvation.

God also chose Judas and Pharaoh, too. Did He choose them for destruction? That's determinism.
There you go with those isms again. :laugh:

And as I recall, the Bible says they were chosen for that very reason.
 

npetreley

New Member
dan e. said:
Has anyone else noticed that when you highlight bits and pieces, you can pretty much make the Bible say what you want it to say? I'm not telling who I agree/disagree with....I'm just saying it is interesting how any side can sound right, based on what little phrase or word you highlight. I've noticed that in threads recently.

Yeah, that's true. But even then it takes an a-priori belief in order to make one of the highlights mean what you want it to mean. For example, I highlighted "chosen to salvation". No a-priori position is necessary to see that it contradicts webdog's assertion that God has never chosen anyone to salvation. There it is in black and white, "chosen to salvation".

However, when you highlight "belief of the truth", it does not change anything UNLESS you approach that text with the a-priori assumption that we believe the truth of our own free will. The text actually implies the opposite, that we were chosen to salvation THROUGH belief in the truth TO WHICH HE CALLED us. It was all God, and none of us.

So it takes more than a highlight to make the text mean what you want it to mean.
 

npetreley

New Member
webdog said:
No. We are chosen...through, not "to".

To all BB participants. As webdog pointed out, the Bible is in error. The following word "to" in bold should be changed to "through". Please make a note of it, and change your Bibles at your soonest convenience.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

TCGreek

New Member
npetreley said:
Yeah, that's true. But even then it takes an a-priori belief in order to make one of the highlights mean what you want it to mean. For example, I highlighted "chosen to salvation". No a-priori position is necessary to see that it contradicts webdog's assertion that God has never chosen anyone to salvation. There it is in black and white, "chosen to salvation".

However, when you highlight "belief of the truth", it does not change anything UNLESS you approach that text with the a-priori assumption that we believe the truth of our own free will. The text actually implies the opposite, that we were chosen to salvation THROUGH belief in the truth TO WHICH HE CALLED us. It was all God, and none of us.

So it takes more than a highlight to make the text mean what you want it to mean.

Npet,

1. I stumbled into this lastnight as I was reading Joel 2:

And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved
;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

2. Notice, the Lord calls those who eventually calls on Him for salvation.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
However, when you highlight "belief of the truth", it does not change anything UNLESS you approach that text with the a-priori assumption that we believe the truth of our own free will. The text actually implies the opposite, that we were chosen to salvation THROUGH belief in the truth TO WHICH HE CALLED us. It was all God, and none of us.
Wow. Talk about twisting...

God has called mankind to believe in Christ. Man can either believe, or not believe. We believe...we are chosen "in Christ". Very simple, but it is amazing the confusion that stems from twisting simple statments to mean something more complex that the text is not saying.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
npetreley said:
To all BB participants. As webdog pointed out, the Bible is in error. The following word "to" in bold should be changed to "through". Please make a note of it, and change your Bibles at your soonest convenience.
To all BB participants, npet like to play Al Gore and leave out the simple truths.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
TCGreek said:
Npet,

1. I stumbled into this lastnight as I was reading Joel 2:

And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

2. Notice, the Lord calls those who eventually calls on Him for salvation.
I think dane's above post applies to this one...
 

npetreley

New Member
webdog said:
Wow. Talk about twisting...

God has called mankind to believe in Christ. Man can either believe, or not believe. We believe...we are chosen "in Christ". Very simple, but it is amazing the confusion that stems from twisting simple statments to mean something more complex that the text is not saying.

Yes, you twisted the text. The text does not say that that you believe first, after which you are chosen. You brought that assumption to the text, which is why you believe your highlight makes the meaning different than the simplicity of "chosen to salvation".

Like I said, "chosen to salvation" is there in black and white. "through belief in the truth" is also there in black and white, but it doesn't say, "you are chosen to salvation AFTER you believe the truth of your own free will". You only see it that way because that's what you already believe.

By the way, it first says, THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT. I notice you didn't highlight that part, since we don't get sanctified of the Spirit by our own free will.
.
 
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