NIV Calls Lucifer, "Jesus" (Article)

[michelle]

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Yet, the words of the KJV are not God's words either. The word lucifer is not God's word, would you agree?
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No, I don't agree, and cannot believe you would say such a thing. Every single word in my Bible is the very words of God. I believe this and will always believe this. I am sorry for you if you don't. I believe God when he has promised to preserve his word for every generation, and I also believe that his words are everlasting, and I also believe that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Not only that, but I have the Holy Spirit of truth dwelling in me that gives me conviction of these truths.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by michelle:
No, I don't agree, and cannot believe you would say such a thing. Every single word in my Bible is the very words of God.

So, the KJV has the authority to replace biblical texts rather than translate them? Oh my. That's heresy.

I am sorry for you if you don't.

No, I don't adhere to [SNIPPED] versionolatry. That's unscriptural, and doctrinally false.

I believe God when he has promised to preserve his word for every generation, and I also believe that his words are everlasting, and I also believe that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Which provides no scriptural support for the false doctrine of single translation-ism.

Not only that, but I have the Holy Spirit of truth dwelling in me that gives me conviction of these truths.

The Holy Spirit tells me otherwise.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour

A little wisdom wouldn't hurt you either.

[ May 20, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Yet, the words of the KJV are not God's words either. The word lucifer is not God's word, would you agree?
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No, I don't agree, and cannot believe you would say such a thing. Every single word in my Bible is the very words of God. I believe this and will always believe this. I am sorry for you if you don't. I believe God when he has promised to preserve his word for every generation, and I also believe that his words are everlasting, and I also believe that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Not only that, but I have the Holy Spirit of truth dwelling in me that gives me conviction of these truths.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Okay, then explain this:

We all accept that the KJV takes the word "lucifer" from the Vulgate. That is not in dispute. Well...

The Latin Vulgate (from whence came the KJV “Lucifer”: in the Isaiah passage) also reads “Lucifer” in 2Pet 1:19:

…quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco

donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

Wonder why the KJVO advocates will accept Lucifer in Isaiah, but will be unwilling to accept “until the day dawns and Lucifer rises in your hearts” in 2Pet? But of course – the KJV translators were right to follow the Vulgate when they pleased, and not to do so when they pleased.

Job 11:17; 38:32 also has the only other references to the word “lucifer” in the Vulgate; in the latter reference, clearly the planet Venus is referenced in an astronomical context).

If the word "lucifer" is in the text, then it should, using the KJVOnly logic also be used in these instances the same way and always refer to the same thing.

 

[michelle]

Actually the Old Testament is in Hebrew and the New Testament is in Greek. The translators chose to use this Latin word for this Hebrew word rather than the English rendering for it. The tranlsators had many manuscriptst to translate from, and this was the one they found to best represent the Hebrew word for Helel. I don't argue it, I just believe it, and I know that this was in the providence of God, and that he has blessed this for generations and will continue to do so until he comes.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Marcia]

Still going through the 3 pages posted since I was here last night!

Michelle, you said:

Since when do dead kings prophesy? Since when does anyone who is not a prophet, prophesy the words of the Lord? How is it that these dead kings know what is to come, and know what is in the heart of Lucifer?

Dead kings prophesy when God uses them as a literary device! I said earlier that, of course, the dead kings are NOT really speaking. God is using this as a literary device. These kings are not resurrected -- they are raised by God from Sheol to rebuke the King of Babylon as a literary device. This is poetry -- you know that, right? These are God's words but he is using the dead kings in part of it to rebuke the King, to have them say, "Listen, we know you are vain and proudful just like we were. Now look at us! Here we are in Sheol. All that vainglory did not good because no one can have the glory of God. You wil fall just like us."

Verse 18 has them laying in their tombs again after speaking, then God speaks directly to the King of Babylon starting in verse 19.

Also, Lucifer is not a word from God because the OT was written in Hebrew (except for a couple of parts in Aramaic -- some of Daniel and another book I forgot which one) and Lucifer, Michelle, is not Hebrew. The word God used is 'helel' and as I have pointed out twice, is often used for light from constellations.

 

[michelle]

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So, the KJV has the authority to replace biblical texts rather than translate them? Oh my. That's heresy.
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Did I say this? No, I did not. Did I imply this? NO I did not. The proper translation of the Hebrew and Greek of the received text into the English language is still God's word, just translated to the same meaning in another language. They are still God's words. God is creator of all languages, and has the power, ability and authorization to provide all people His words of truth in one's own prospective language. This is what I believe, and this is what is evidenced in my Bible. I am sorry you have a difficult time understanding this simple truth. And it is not heresy. It is faith in God and his promises and his faithfulness and lovingkindness.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by michelle:
Actually the Old Testament is in Hebrew and the New Testament is in Greek. The translators chose to use this Latin word for this Hebrew word rather than the English rendering for it. The tranlsators had many manuscriptst to translate from, and this was the one they found to best represent the Hebrew word for Helel. I don't argue it, I just believe it, and I know that this was in the providence of God, and that he has blessed this for generations and will continue to do so until he comes.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Translation: "I've never seen this line of reasoning before and have no clue how to respond appropriate apart from an appeal to my own belief."

Then you faith is in your own subjective experience and not in logic. God is logical, because logic exists as a necessary concomitant of God's own existence. To believe things illogical things is not to believe God, it is to believe self, because God will not do anything illogical, because illogical things are contrary to His own nature. This is one of the foundations for the historical orthodox Christian doctrine of God and His attributes.

The factbut the KJV committee did not translate the term "lucifer" in Isaiah, they lifted it directly from the Vulgate, while leaving out other instances. You are correct that the OT is written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. It's a pity that the 1611 translation committee only went as far as LATIN for their rendering of the word "heylel" here. You claim God did this, but have nothing other than subjective experience on which to make such a claim. That is ILLOGICAL and contrary to the nature of God.

 

[michelle]

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Translation: "I've never seen this line of reasoning before and have no clue how to respond appropriate apart from an appeal to my own belief."

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I would greatly appreciate it, if you would stop doing this. You are putting words into my mouth that I have never said nor implied. If this is your opinion, then state it as such, but don't quote it as if it were something I have said. This is very disrespectful, and unchristian like behaviour. Thank you.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ransom]

Third and last chance. If the KJV-onlyists who rely on this assumption can't defend it, then a) there's no reason to believe anything they say, and b) they prove themselves to be as yellow as this smiley:

In order to claim that the NIV "confuses Jesus and Satan" because its rendering uses the words "morning star," the KJV-onlyists in this thread have presupposed something very important. That is, they have simply assumed that a symbol must stand for the very same object or person or idea every time it is used.

Why should I accept that?

If the KJV-onlyists can't show us why that is so, then there is no reason why we should accept their slander against the Word of God as presented in the NIV.

I'm calling you out. If you can't defend your assumption, then you have turned 9 pages of KJV-only rhetoric into a non-issue.

 

[michelle]

God desires me to have faith in Him, his word and his truth, not my own logic, nor the logic or wisdom of men. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. Where is your fear of God? Let my logic be irrelevant, and the wisdom of God abound.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ransom]

Yep. Yellow as a banana in a glass of lemonade on top of a taxicab.

 

[TWade]

I'm calling you out.

Meet me behind the school at 3:00.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by michelle:
Let my logic be irrelevant, and the wisdom of God abound.

God has most certainly answered the first part of your request.

 

[michelle]

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I'm calling you out. If you can't defend your assumption, then you have turned 9 pages of KJV-only rhetoric into a non-issue.
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Within the 9 pages of this thread it has been answered and explained to you, you have either chosen to ignore it, or disregard it. Go ahead and believe what you will. Just because you state your "opinion" that it is a "non-issue" doesn't make it so. I am sorry for you, that you cannot and will not see the truth in this. It may be a non-issue to you, but it is not for me. I take God's word very seriously, and have a great love and reverence for it and for Him.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[ScottEmerson]

As Paul said, "I would not have you be ignorant, brethren."

 

[michelle]

Scott,


Why don't you quote the whole thing in order to put that into context. That verse of scripture has nothing to do with the logic of men, but was addressed to gentile christians to not become conceited against the jews. God has not forgotten them and cut them off forever. This was ignorance in relation to God and his promises, and his words of truth. Has nothing to do with the logic of men.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[ScottEmerson]

Paul would not want you to live in such ignorance, I wouldn't think.

 

[michelle]

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Paul would not want you to live in such ignorance, I wouldn't think.
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I guess that would depend upon what exactly I was ignorant in. If I was ignorant regarding the word of God and his truth, then yes I would agree.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[ScottEmerson]

Then why are you remaining in such ignorance regarding Truth? I don't mean to be mean, but you have to admit that over and over again you say in no uncertain terms that you don't care about learning.

 

[HankD]

I take God's word very seriously, and have a great love and reverence for it and for Him.

And by innuendo the rest of us don't?

Just because many of us hold the original language text in an authoritative position above ANY translation does not mean we are not able to take God's Word very seriously. In fact many of us take it so seriously that we have taken the time, paid the expense and practiced the discipline necessary to learn the original languages.

HankD