No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

[saturneptune]

Straw man argument.

Next...

OK, I am next. Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama all knew they were elected. (Although for Bush in 2000, it took him a month to figure it out)

Sorry, I could not resist. We agree here Preacher4Truth. 1 John 5:13 says these things are written so we know we have eternal life. It could nto be any clearer.

1 John 4:13 says "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit." From this verse we can see that the proof of our salvation is the presence of Jesus’ Spirit in our life. People forget the Holy Spirit is God. He is quite capable of telling our inner self were are saved beyond any doubt. Sometimes I believe people forget the Holy Spirit is God, or is a weak God, kind of like those who believe God needs man's help in the salvation process. In Romans 8:14 it says that "those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God" so we know the Holy Spirit’s presence because He leads us and prompts us to live a holy life. When we follow this inner witness of the Spirit we are changed so that what is said in 2 Cor. 5:17 becomes a reality in our life. This verse says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" This happens as the Spirit leads us to leave our old sinful way of life and to become born again into a new life that pleases God.

Once the Holy Spirit is in us, He does not go away. He keeps us on course towards Jesus when we stray. Romans 8:12-13 say, "... brothers, we have an obligation ... if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." These verses make it clear that we have a responsibility to follow the Spirit's leading otherwise we will die (which is a polite way of saying we will end up in hell).

The little book of 1 John makes it very clear that a person who is “born of God” will not continue in sin.

1 John 3:6-10 say,
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning ...
He who does what is sinful is of the devil ...
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him ...
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

The thing is, the Holy Spirit is one's life does not allow for a return to a sinful life style as before salvation. There is a definite change, a new Creation. If one does sin (and they will), there is a correction within the person in short order. And that IMO, is how a Christian knows he is elected.

 

[Winman]

JamesAch,

You've demonstrated several things in dialogue. First, you are ignorant concerning the truths of the teachings of both Irresistible Grace and now of Perseverance of the Saints. Due to this, you and others who don't know what these things in actuality teach erect straw man fallacies based upon your assumption and then attack them.

One fact you should know is Calvinists know they are saved. Scripture calls us elect over and over again, and what a glorious truth it is to be called the elect of God!

You've been given passages time and again showing we can know we are elect. Merely quoting 2 Peter 1:10 sends you off on your oft, over-used and misguided 'circular reasoning' copout.

I also sense a bit of disdain coming from you and others like you over this passage. I take it is is something you do not practice? Or do you? Do you practice and implement the above passage into your life? Most anti-Calvinist persons such as yourself attack others for using it as you have been doing, so I'll take it that you don't put it into practice at all (unless you show that you do in fact heed and practice it).

Election and salvation are synonymous, a truth you refuse to acknowledge. It was the elect that Paul sought in his preaching, 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

The fact remains; You are completely incorrect, the Reformed do know they are saved and that my friend is synonymous with being elect whether you can handle that truth or not, it is nonetheless truth.

- Blessings

Baloney, it is common knowledge that Calvinists especially struggle with assurance of salvation.

Piper has identified the issue of assurance as a major spiritual problem among his parishioners. He stated in his presentation at the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS) in 2007:

I deal with this as much as anything, probably, in the people that I'm preaching to. Fears, and doubts, doubts not about objective 'Did He rise from the dead'–very few people are wrestling with that–but 'Am I in? Am I saved?' That's very common for people to wrestle with.3

http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2010/10F3.html

What does a Calvinist do when he is uncertain he is one of the elect? He works. This is nothing but works salvation.

No, trusting in Jesus means to cease from work and to place yourself in Jesus's hands completely, and rely upon him only to save you. This is exactly what Jesus himself did.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This is a perfect example of saving faith. Jesus as a man trusted and believed his Father that he would raise him from the dead. Jesus was willing to go to the cross and die, believing his Father's promise.

I do not try to save myself, I have already come to Jesus, and now I depend upon him to save me as he promised.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No amount of work will assure me I am saved. I would know I am trying to work my way to heaven. No, when I doubt (and everyone doubts at times), I simply remind myself that I have Jesus's promise that if I came to him he will under no circumstance cast me out. I rely completely on Jesus and his perfect faithfulness to keep his word, not my faithfulness. If I had to rely on my faithfulness I would be lost for a certainty.

You are looking the wrong direction, do not look to self, look to God.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

[preacher4truth]

OK, I am next. Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama all knew they were elected. (Although for Bush in 2000, it took him a month to figure it out)

Sorry, I could not resist. We agree here Preacher4Truth. 1 John 5:13 says these things are written so we know we have eternal life. It could nto be any clearer.

1 John 4:13 says "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit." From this verse we can see that the proof of our salvation is the presence of Jesus’ Spirit in our life. People forget the Holy Spirit is God. He is quite capable of telling our inner self were are saved beyond any doubt. Sometimes I believe people forget the Holy Spirit is God, or is a weak God, kind of like those who believe God needs man's help in the salvation process. In Romans 8:14 it says that "those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God" so we know the Holy Spirit’s presence because He leads us and prompts us to live a holy life. When we follow this inner witness of the Spirit we are changed so that what is said in 2 Cor. 5:17 becomes a reality in our life. This verse says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" This happens as the Spirit leads us to leave our old sinful way of life and to become born again into a new life that pleases God.

Once the Holy Spirit is in us, He does not go away. He keeps us on course towards Jesus when we stray. Romans 8:12-13 say, "... brothers, we have an obligation ... if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." These verses make it clear that we have a responsibility to follow the Spirit's leading otherwise we will die (which is a polite way of saying we will end up in hell).

The little book of 1 John makes it very clear that a person who is “born of God” will not continue in sin.

1 John 3:6-10 say,
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning ...
He who does what is sinful is of the devil ...
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him ...
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

The thing is, the Holy Spirit is one's life does not allow for a return to a sinful life style as before salvation. There is a definite change, a new Creation. If one does sin (and they will), there is a correction within the person in short order. And that IMO, is how a Christian knows he is elected.

Good job SN.

Part of the confusion stemming from those who want to malign the brothers as 'not knowing they are elect' comes from misunderstanding parts of TULIP because the titles are misleading, so they assume they know what is taught within simply due to the titles.

A while back I posted a thread 'The 'I' in TULIP' and the attack was relentless on this thread against IG. But the fact remains that they were attacking what they thought it meant, not what it actually teaches. It was both entertaining and sad to watch the reactions of those who came to attack something to which they knew nothing. The end of the thread shows I accomplished my objective.

Another issue is that we as Reformed/Calvinists/DoG are adamant about the marks of a true believer and concerning self-examination, certainty &c and these things are taken out of context and in turn are actually (and wrongly) used against us to 'prove' that then we can't know we are saved. That's what happens when we actually use the Scriptures as an examination to make certain of our election.

- Blessings

 

[Winman]

Good job SN.

Part of the confusion stemming from those who want to malign the brothers as 'not knowing they are elect' comes from misunderstanding parts of TULIP because the titles are misleading, so they assume they know what is taught within simply due to the titles.

A while back I posted a thread 'The 'I' in TULIP' and the attack was relentless on this thread against IG. But the fact remains that they were attacking what they thought it meant, not what it actually teaches. It was both entertaining and sad to watch the reactions of those who came to attack something they to which they knew nothing. The end of the thread shows I accomplished my objective.

Another issue is that we as Reformed/Calvinists/DoG are adamant about the marks of a true believer and concerning self-examination, certainty &c and these things are taken out of context and in turn are actually (and wrongly) used against us to 'prove' that then we can't know we are saved. That's what happens when we actually use the Scriptures as an examination to make certain of our election.

- Blessings

You can deny all you want, I just showed an article where John Piper admitted lack of assurance was a MAJOR problem for his parishioners. Piper has admitted that he himself struggles with assurance.

The cat is already out of the bag.

 

[Aaron]

Baloney, it is common knowledge that Calvinists especially struggle with assurance of salvation.

Because Calvinists especially have seen God and know their own depravity.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

You've demonstrated several things in dialogue. First, you are ignorant concerning the truths of the teachings of both Irresistible Grace and now of Perseverance of the Saints.

You really need a new approach to that because every time I demonstrate what it is you simply respond that "you're ignorant". It's so much easier to simply carte blance the ignorance accusation then to actually PROVE the other person doesn't correctly state the positions.

Even IF I misstated the position, the debate was about assurance and I don't have to have correctly stated IG in order to rebut your argument for assurance. More circular reasoning:

1. I am saved because I quote a verse that tells me to prove I am saved
2. You asking me to prove that I am saved shows you don't understand election
3. You don't understand election because I told you I am saved
4. I am saved because I am elect
5. I can prove my election because the Bible tells me to prove it
6. You asking me to prove it shows you are ignorant of irresistible grace.

Classic circular reasoning and red herring tactics.

Due to this, you and others who don't know what these things in actuality teach erect straw man fallacies based upon your assumption and then attack them.

I can see I'm going to have to start another thread on what a straw man argument is. It is clear that you neither know the definition of a straw man argument, nor how to construct a logical flowing response within a debate.

One fact you should know is Calvinists know they are saved. Scripture calls us elect over and over again, and what a glorious truth it is to be called the elect of God!

Another illogical statement. You can not assume that I KNOW any Calvinists are saved. I don't know you from that Smiley on the right side of my screen. That's why I asked YOU to explain how you know YOU are saved because that takes the assumptions out of my hands and allows you to be bound by your own statements which can then be used as a premise to determine if your explanation is correct scripturally. The fact that I disagree with your version of the gospel and have stated that you have obsfucated on the question of assurance numerous times shows that I DONT KNOW that you or any other Calvinist is saved.

Scripture calls us elect over and over again

You're doing it again. Scripture calling you elect is not evidence of your salvation. If I go on the street corner and pick out some random bypasser, and say "Hey, you on the bike, did you know that YOU ARE ELECT! It says so right here in 1 Peter" Does that make him elect??

You've been given passages time and again showing we can know we are elect. Merely quoting 2 Peter 1:10 sends you off on your oft, over-used and misguided 'circular reasoning' copout.

And that's your problem. You point to verses that say you CAN know, and then use the same verses to prove that you KNOW. You can't use one verse as a test and then use the same verse to prove the test. That is a blatant contradiction.

I also sense a bit of disdain coming from you and others like you over this passage. I take it is is something you do not practice? Or do you? Do you practice and implement the above passage into your life? Most anti-Calvinist persons such as yourself attack others for using it as you have been doing, so I'll take it that you don't put it into practice at all (unless you show that you do in fact heed and practice it).

I believe that verse, absolutely, but I don't rely on it as PROOF and EVIDENCE of my assurance. If you see what Winman and I both said a few posts back, THAT is the answer to the question of assurance.

Election and salvation are synonymous, a truth you refuse to acknowledge. It was the elect that Paul sought in his preaching, 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

There are more than one elect. The elect are called "elect" because they are elected for a specific purpose during a specific time. Everytime you quote a verse on election, you are quoting the POSITIONAL aspect of election, and using it as FUNCTIONAL term to support your premise. When a person trusts Christ, He becomes elect for the purpose God desires for that age.

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes." Romans 11:28

Notice the difference between the GOSPEL and the ELECTION. This is why Calvinism rejects the millennial reign because it allows them to reject the difference between the church and Israel. Calvinism consistently blurs the distinction between the elects in the Bible, and attempts to proof-text a philosophical doctrine around it . This is why Calvin never wrote a commentary on Revelation because Revelation proves there is a difference between Israel and the Church, and if Calvin or Augustine would have faced Revelation with a straight face it would have resulted in a nuclear disaster to election.

And also note here, on a side note, that in this verse God loves someone who is at the time the ENEMY of the gospel. So much for God only loving "some".

The fact remains; You are completely incorrect, the Reformed do know they are saved and that my friend is synonymous with being elect whether you can handle that truth or not, it is nonetheless truth.

:sleep::sleep::sleep:



- Blessings

 

[Winman]

Because Calvinists especially have seen God and know their own depravity.

I assure you that we non-Cals are very aware of our sinfulness. Even after being born again, I am not the best Christian I could be and often fail.

But assurance must be founded on the word of God. You cannot trust feelings, one day you will feel saved, the next you won't. You cannot trust your works, one day you may do many good works, the next day you may commit many terrible sins. Look at the lives of Samson, David, or Solomon. These were all men who trusted God, but all fell into serious sin at one time or another.

No, the only true assurance comes from trusting God's promises. Jesus said whoever comes to him, he would in no wise cast them out. This is a promise we can all depend on. The scriptures say whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, so if you have sincerely called on Jesus to forgive your sins, you can rest assured your sins are forgiven. We are not always faithful to Jesus, but he will ALWAYS be faithful to us and keep his promises. This is the way to true assurance.

Calvinism does not like these promises. If a person says they came to Jesus in their heart, many Calvinists strongly object, saying that is a work. But it is Jesus himself who said, Come unto me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus is not going to reject you for obeying him and doing exactly what he commanded you to do. If you come to him, you will be saved. If you refuse to come to him, you will be lost.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You may not like this, but Calvinism is false doctrine that actually discourages people from doing what the scriptures say to do. Do not worry, if you come to Jesus he will not reject you, he will not accuse you of doing a work, he will save you.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Lot was righteous in his BELIEF but not in his PRACTICE and WORKS. But the salvation of Lot was dependent on GODS PERSEVERANCE, NOT LOT'S and in Calvinism, perseverance is based on the PERSON'S perseverance. That's a works system no matter which way you slice the pizza, diagonal or in little squares.

This is where you err. We all depend upon God's perseverance.

 

[DrJamesAch]

I assure you that we non-Cals are very aware of our sinfulness. Even after being born again, I am not the best Christian I could be and often fail.

But assurance must be founded on the word of God. You cannot trust feelings, one day you will feel saved, the next you won't. You cannot trust your works, one day you may do many good works, the next day you may commit many terrible sins. Look at the lives of Samson, David, or Solomon. These were all men who trusted God, but all fell into serious sin at one time or another.

No, the only true assurance comes from trusting God's promises. Jesus said whoever comes to him, he would in no wise cast them out. This is a promise we can all depend on. The scriptures say whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, so if you have sincerely called on Jesus to forgive your sins, you can rest assured your sins are forgiven. We are not always faithful to Jesus, but he will ALWAYS be faithful to us and keep his promises. This is the way to true assurance.

Calvinism does not like these promises. If a persons says they came to Jesus in their heart, many Calvinists strongly object, saying that is a work. But it is Jesus himself who said, Come to me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus is not going to reject you for obeying him and doing exactly what he commanded you to do. If you come to him, you will be saved. If you refuse to come to him, you will be lost.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You may not like this, but Calvinism is false doctrine that actually discourages people from doing what the scriptures say to do. Do not worry, if you come to Jesus he will not reject you, he will not accuse you of doing a work, he will save you.

Calvinism is a devilish conspiracy to get the Baptists in line with the Roman Catholic church and to control the remaining protestant groups. The Reformation dealt a major blow to the RCC and the RCC needed a quick response to it. The RCC, when it's back is against the wall, has always tolerated a little dissension so long as it provides an opportunity at a later point (where the Muslims learned their 'quraysh' method from). John Calvin dusted off the old CATHOLIC Augustine books and went to town to try and give protestants a different angle. Hence REFORMED doctrine. Reformed what? REFORMED CATHOLICISM. This is why there are many doctrines of Catholicism that are still maintained in Calvinism. If Rome can't kill you, they will settle for the next best thing, raise up someone that will change your doctrine and change your Bible.

Rome is still killing people and the Calvinists and so-called Reformers don't even realize it.

If Calvinism or any form of "DoG" was consistent, there would be elements of it contained in the Baptist churches between Augustine and Calvin and there are NOT. Augustine's influence surely wasn't Paul, it was Manichaeism. The fact that history shows those who disagreed with Augustine were persecuted proves that the early church (the REAL church) did not believe or teach "Calvinism".

And, thanks for the correction, sometimes English words can look the same to me but glad you caught it.

 

[Winman]

Calvinism is a devilish conspiracy to get the Baptists in line with the Roman Catholic church and to control the remaining protestant groups. The Reformation dealt a major blow to the RCC and the RCC needed a quick response to it. The RCC, when it's back is against the wall, has always tolerated a little dissension so long as it provides an opportunity at a later point (where the Muslims learned their 'quraysh' method from). John Calvin dusted off the old CATHOLIC Augustine books and went to town to try and give protestants a different angle. Hence REFORMED doctrine. Reformed what? REFORMED CATHOLICISM. This is why there are many doctrines of Catholicism that are still maintained in Calvinism. If Rome can't kill you, they will settle for the next best thing, raise up someone that will change your doctrine and change your Bible.

Rome is still killing people and the Calvinists and so-called Reformers don't even realize it.

If Calvinism or any form of "DoG" was consistent, there would be elements of it contained in the Baptist churches between Augustine and Calvin and there are NOT. Augustine's influence surely wasn't Paul, it was Manichaeism. The fact that history shows those who disagreed with Augustine were persecuted proves that the early church (the REAL church) did not believe or teach "Calvinism".

And, thanks for the correction, sometimes English words can look the same to me but glad you caught it.

I agree. We often slam Calvin, but Augustine was the REAL heretic, introducing his gnostic and Manichaen views. You probably know how I feel about Original Sin, so you know how I feel about Augustine.

Calvin wasn't all that fantastic as he is given credit, he simply copied Augustine for the most part.

 

[salzer mtn]

Notice the difference between the GOSPEL and the ELECTION. This is why Calvinism rejects the millennial reign because it allows them to reject the difference between the church and Israel. Calvinism consistently blurs the distinction between the elects in the Bible, and attempts to proof-text a philosophical doctrine around it . This is why Calvin never wrote a commentary on Revelation because Revelation proves there is a difference between Israel and the Church, and if Calvin or Augustine would have faced Revelation with a straight face it would have resulted in a nuclear disaster to election.

It is strange how that some people have no problem with the election of Israel but totally reject the docrine of election in the Gentiles.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All of the elect will persevere. It is grace, not works. People confuse the two.

Bingo!:thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

If all of the elect WILL preserve, then why are they asked to MAKE their calling and election SURE? Or does God simply MAKE them CHECK their own salvation? 2 Cor 13:5.

Right there you show you don't understand Scripture. John 6:39 He will lose none. 2 Peter 2:10, the elect, make certain of it. You have a problem with this passage and it is glaringly apparent.

'Or does God simply MAKE them CHECK their own salvation?' sounds like you're mocking God and this passage to me. What does the text instruct the believer to do? Yet another passage you have a serious problem with, and one you should practice yourself.

Tell me, do you practice these two passages?

Lot was righteous in his BELIEF but not in his PRACTICE and WORKS. But the salvation of Lot was dependent on GODS PERSEVERANCE, NOT LOT'S and in Calvinism, perseverance is based on the PERSON'S perseverance. That's a works system no matter which way you slice the pizza, diagonal or in little squares.

Right here you show yourself clueless as to the true teaching of the Perseverance of the Saints. Your assumptions are incorrect. You'd be dismantled readily in a public debate on POS because you have no idea what you're fighting against.

:thumbsup:

 

[Aaron]

No, the only true assurance comes from trusting God's promises.

The Scriptures say what they say. Some men have faith (and all who do have varying degrees thereof), and some do not. So again, for the noncalvinist, his assurance is based on something he does.

But the best assurance comes from the witness of the Holy Spirit. The spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. For the Calvinist, assurance is based on the witness of the Spirit.

 

[Winman]

The Scriptures say what they say. Some men have faith (and all who do have varying degrees thereof), and some do not. So again, for the noncalvinist, his assurance is based on something he does.

But the best assurance comes from the witness of the Holy Spirit. The spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. For the Calvinist, assurance is based on the witness of the Spirit.

Trusting someone is the opposite of doing something. Suppose I trust someone and loan them my car, what do I do? Nothing, I simply wait for them to return it as promised. So faith is a lack of work altogether. I think you have a mistaken view of what trusting is.

Or suppose my car was about to be repossessed. A friend calls and tells me not to worry, he will make my payment for me. What do I do? Nothing, I simply wait to see if my friend pays the overdue bill as promised. That is what trusting someone, believing someone is, a ceasing from self effort and depending upon another.

Trusting Jesus is simply coming to him and depending on him to save you as promised. Nothing more.

As far as this witness of the Spirit, could you explain that? How exactly does the Holy Spirit assure you?

 

[Mexdeaf]

As far as this witness of the Spirit, could you explain that? How exactly does the Holy Spirit assure you?

As a believer you should be able to explain it for yourself, should you not?

It is really very simple.

 

[preacher4truth]

The Scriptures say what they say. Some men have faith (and all who do have varying degrees thereof), and some do not. So again, for the noncalvinist, his assurance is based on something he does.

But the best assurance comes from the witness of the Holy Spirit. The spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. For the Calvinist, assurance is based on the witness of the Spirit.

But you're speaking to a person that has said 'even a dog has faith' brother, and this equated with a man who also has faith.

Probably should start there?

 

[Winman]

As a believer you should be able to explain it for yourself, should you not?

It is really very simple.

I wanted to hear HIS explanation.

I notice you did not explain it either.

I draw my assurance from the word of God. Jesus said those that come to him he will in no wise cast out. I know for a fact I sincerely came to Jesus in my heart for forgiveness and salvation, therefore I know I have salvation by the word of God.

I also believe I have the witness of the Holy Spirit, but I still would like Aaron (and you) to explain this to me.

Should be simple. :thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Numbers 15:
13 “‘Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when they present a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. 14 For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’”

Exodus 12:48
“A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.

Leviticus 19:34
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

The elect, God always uses to bring more into the mix so God will include them.

That is the purpose of the elect, unfortunately many of the elected Jews (Israel) could not figure that out.

Always listen, hearing and never understanding, this is our job as an elected believer, easy not complicated.

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.


I praise God for those who don't tell me it is O.K. that I walk away from the Lord or for those who will just watch me walk away and do nothing, but for those who encourage me to stay right were I am in His rest


Jeremiah 23:
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

 

[drfuss]

This discussion is mostly about definitions and terminology. If you replace the word elect with true Christian, the issue is the same for Calvinists and eternal security believers. How do true Christians know they are really true Christians?

The same amount of certainty and uncertainty exist for both beliefs. Both have trusted Christ as savior and lord and have faith in his saving and keeping power. Faith is their security.