No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

[Winman]

As we continue, the tally continues to rise against the straw man false accusation that the Calvinists/Reformed/DoG don't know if they're saved or elect. To the contrary Calvinists/Reformed/DoG do, in fact, have full assurance of salvation and election. We're aware enough of Scripture that being elect and saved are synonymous while some anti-calvies tuck tail like a beat dog when they even hear the word elect.

You non-calvies have brought nothing unless you consider straw man arguments, out of context passages, erroneous 'circular reasoning' copout accusations because you just got thumped by the Word, and smart alecked name calling by James bringing 'something'. Nevertheless, congrats non-calvies, you've been owned!!! :thumbsup: :applause:

Not to mention a couple of irrefutable passages proving we can know election, namely 2 Peter 1:10, 1 Thess. 1:4 (and a few other pesky Epistles that call us point blank 'elect').

:smilewinkgrin:

Who are you trying to convince? I have already showed where John Piper said lack of assurance was a MAJOR problem among his people.

Here is another Calvinist writer who confirms this;

It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.
Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.
Isn’t this ironic? I have never had a call from an Arminian (or any other believer in conditional election) about this. In my experience, it is only Calvinists who doubt their faith in this way, with such traumatic devastation. Why?

Source- http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

This fellow is a Calvinist himself

First, every reader needs to know that I am a Calvinist.

If I had never read Piper or this other fellow's article, I would already know that Calvinists doubt their salvation. I can put myself in your shoes and imagine what it is like to be a Calvinist. The first question that would pop into my mind is;

AM I ONE OF THE ELECT?

Now, I take religion very seriously, I know this would trouble me greatly. So, I know for a fact that many Calvinists doubt their salvation. You can tell me all day and night you do not doubt, I know better.

Piper and this other writer are honest enough to admit it. You are never going to solve the problem by denying the problem exists.

The problem is Limited Atonement, if you believe Jesus only died for some people, then you can never be absolutely sure Jesus died for you.

The answer? Limited Atonement is false. All of Calvinism is false, but if you had to reject only one letter, L is the letter to reject. There are many 4 point Calvinists, and almost all of them reject Limited Atonement. Why? Because the lack of assurance is too much to take.

So, if you want to go on pretending this is not a problem for Calvinists, go ahead, your loss.

 

[canadyjd]

I do not believe I have misrepresented Piper at all, he is still telling you to do certain things.

He points people to Jesus. He tells them they must have faith in Christ.

He says to read the Bible. That is good, but does it prove you are saved?.....How does it guarantee you are one of the elect?

I didn't see him use the phrases "prove you are saved" or "guarantee you are one of the elect".

.....Now, these are all wonderful things that every Christian should do, but exactly how do these things make you sure you are elect? The problem in Calvinism is that you believe many people ACT saved. They go through all the motions, they act religious, they do good works, but they are not saved. I fail to see how telling a person to do all these good things (and they are all very good things) proves you are saved.

So, on the one hand, all the things Piper directs people to do when answering the question about having assurance of salvation are "very good things". On the other hand, you discount them because Piper said them.

The problem you have, IMHO, is that Piper isn't trying to "prove they are saved" or "prove they are elect" when he gives the advice. He gives people practical, scriptural advice that you acknowledge is "very good".

It is that simple, believe the promises of God.

Piper NEVER said to simply believe God's promises. The scriptures say, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13)

Scripture also says that faith without works is a dead faith. James 2. Scripture also says you were saved unto good works to walk in them. Eph.2:10 Paul says in Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.." And then in v.8 Paul says, "This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds."

What is wrong with pointing out the truth that scripture often speaks of the expectation that those who call upon the name of the Lord will have a transformed life and live accordingly.

BTW, the first thing Piper pointed to was belief in Jesus Christ.

If you have called on Jesus sincerely to forgive your sins and save you, and you trust and depend upon him only to save you, you can know for an absolute certainty you are saved.

I guess I understand. It is the mental assent argument vs. the transformed life argument.

It is amazing that Calvinists rarely claim the word of God to assure themselves of salvation.

Piper repeatedly pointed people seeking assurance to scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

If I had never read Piper or this other fellow's article, I would already know that Calvinists doubt their salvation. I can put myself in your shoes and imagine what it is like to be a Calvinist. The first question that would pop into my mind is;

AM I ONE OF THE ELECT?

Which proves, IMHO, you don't know what it's like to "be a Calvinist". The first thing that pops into my mind when I get out of bed is "Thank you Lord Jesus for saving a sinner like me."

 

[Winman]

He points people to Jesus. He tells them they must have faith in Christ. I didn't see him use the phrases "prove you are saved" or "guarantee you are one of the elect". So, on the one hand, all the things Piper directs people to do when answering the question about having assurance of salvation are "very good things". On the other hand, you discount them because Piper said them.

The problem you have, IMHO, is that Piper isn't trying to "prove they are saved" or "prove they are elect" when he gives the advice. He gives people practical, scriptural advice that you acknowledge is "very good".Scripture also says that faith without works is a dead faith. James 2. Scripture also says you were saved unto good works to walk in them. Eph.2:10 Paul says in Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.." And then in v.8 Paul says, "This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds."

What is wrong with pointing out the truth that scripture often speaks of the expectation that those who call upon the name of the Lord will have a transformed life and live accordingly.

BTW, the first thing Piper pointed to was belief in Jesus Christ.
I guess I understand. It is the mental assent argument vs. the transformed life argument.Piper repeatedly pointed people seeking assurance to scripture.

No, Piper said to DO things. Read your Bible, resolve to conquer unloving attitudes and behavior, live for the eternal good of others.

Heck, he should have just said to help a little old lady cross the street every day! It is the same thing.

If you want to KNOW you are saved, do what the Bible says, Come to Jesus in your heart and trust him to save you. Then you can know 100% for certain you are saved. How?

BECAUSE GOD SAID SO, AND GOD NEVER LIES!

Jesus said whoever comes to him, he will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Quit worrying about this Limited Atonement nonsense (and it IS nonsense) and just come to Jesus, say, Here I am Lord, save me!

If you do that you are saved. It is that simple. If you mean business, then God means business too.

This is that "easy believism" you Calvinists all hate. But it is scriptural.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee must have read John Piper's article, he was doing all sorts of good stuff. He went to church every time the doors were open, he was honest, he fasted, he tithed, he helped old ladies cross the street...

The publican made no such claims, he simply came to God in his heart and cast himself on God's mercy. This is saving faith, plain and simple.

Jesus said only the publican went down to his house justified.

There it is in black and white. Sounds pretty "easy" doesn't it?

The Bible says,

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Quit worrying about whether you are elect and do what the Bible says, call on Jesus to save you. No man is going to call on Jesus unless he truly believes Jesus is the Son of God who rose from the dead. You are not going to call on a man who died 2000 years ago.

If you really believe Jesus is the Son of God who rose from the dead, call on him and ask him to save you. You will be saved. How do you know? Because God said so! It is that simple.

Jesus is not going to reject you for doing the thing he commanded you to do. He is not going to say you saved yourself by works when you called on him, he WANTS you to call on him.

You Calvinists have made every thing so complicated, and you make people fearful to do the very things scripture commands.

Do what Jesus said, come to him in your heart (because that is the only possible way you CAN come to him), and call on him today!

 

[DrJamesAch]

As we continue, the tally continues to rise...... .

you just got thumped by the Word,

. Nevertheless, congrats non-calvies, you've been owned!!! :thumbsup: :applause:



:

And there it is folks, the indisputable case that has been made for the egotism of the Calvinist position. It is truly sad that you think discussing topics, even among those who are in heated disagreement, is about "owning" anyone. That is truly the most pathetic aspect of your arguments.

As we continue, the tally continues to rise

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise" 2 Cor 10:12

"Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished." Prov 16:5

 

[canadyjd]

No, Piper said to DO things.......

What do you believe Paul meant when he said in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

 

[Winman]

What do you believe Paul meant when he said in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

That's AFTER we are saved. We are created in Jesus to do good works.

But that does not prove you are saved. Catholics do MANY good works, because they think that is what is going to save them.

You are not doing that, but you are doing good works to prove to yourself you are saved. Just because you read the Bible every day does not mean you have trusted Jesus. Just because you resolve to have a better attitude and be nicer to people does not mean you have trusted Jesus.

No, simply do what the Bible tells you to do. Jesus said "Come unto me". Now, how in the world can we come unto Jesus who is in heaven? Well, there are many things you must believe to "come" to Jesus. First, you must believe he is alive to hear you when you call. If Jesus was simply a man who died and was buried 2000 years ago, he could not possibly hear you. So, by necessity you must believe Jesus is alive and has the power and ability to hear you when you call on him. You must also believe his promise that he will save you when you call. If you believe he is lying, you will not come to him.

It doesn't take a lot of faith, just a mustard seed. But if you believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, call on him and you will be saved. It is not the prayer that saves, Jesus saves, but Jesus has promised to save anyone who comes to him and relies, depends, or trusts on him to save them.

And how do we know we are saved? By God's Word.

And that is another big problem around here, many folks are always attacking God's word, causing doubt, saying it is full of errors and mistakes. No wonder folks have difficulty believing God's promises!

 

[DrJamesAch]

What do you believe Paul meant when he said in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

If Calvinists applied that verse consistently with their theology, it would mean that a believer would never backslide (or fall into sin for those who don't like the term "backslide") because if predetermination demands that you WILL BE saved because it was predetermined, then being predetermined to good works means that you WILL ALWAYS DO GOOD WORKS.

Thus either a Christian never backslides, or the entire view of Calvinistic predestination is wrong.

 

[DrJamesAch]

That's AFTER we are saved. We are created in Jesus to do good works.

But that does not prove you are saved. Catholics do MANY good works, because they think that is what is going to save them.

You are not doing that, but you are doing good works to prove to yourself you are saved. Just because you read the Bible every day does not mean you have trusted Jesus. Just because you resolve to have a better attitude and be nicer to people does not mean you have trusted Jesus.

No, simply do what the Bible tells you to do. Jesus said "Come unto me". Now, how in the world can we come unto Jesus who is in heaven? Well, there are many things you must believe to "come" to Jesus. First, you must believe he is alive to hear you when you call. If Jesus was simply a man who died and was buried 2000 years ago, he could not possibly hear you. So, by necessity you must believe Jesus is alive and has the power and ability to hear you when you call on him. You must also believe his promise that he will save you when you call. If you believe he is lying, you will not come to him.

It doesn't take a lot of faith, just a mustard seed. But if you believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, call on him and you will be saved. It is not the prayer that saves, Jesus saves, but Jesus has promised to save anyone who comes to him and relies, depends, or trusts on him to save them.

And how do we know we are saved? By God's Word.

And that is another big problem around here, many folks are always attacking God's word, causing doubt, saying it is full of errors and mistakes. No wonder folks have difficulty believing God's promises!

And how do we know we are saved? By God's Word.

Just so as to not give wiggle room on this statement because the Calvie's will reply "that's what we just said, 2 Peter 1:10, by God's Word". When one looks at 1 John 5:13, there were 2 things about why the word was written:

1. That you may KNOW that you have eternal life
2. That you may believe in the Son of God.

How do we know if we are saved? Because we have believed in the Son of God, that simple.

The reason that it isn't so simple in Calvinism is because they make election a FUNCTIONAL part of salvation which equates it with salvation itself. That is why a Calvinist can not know they are saved because they are comparing their experience to ELECTION instead of the CONDITIONS for salvation: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. If a person believes and puts their trust in Christ alone for salvation then they HAVE ...REPENTED.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, Piper said to DO things. Read your Bible, resolve to conquer unloving attitudes and behavior, live for the eternal good of others.

What a horror for Piper to make such statements!

The Epistles say the same things as Piper, thus he is using the Scriptures which also tell us to do things. That you have a problem with this is a commentary upon you.

If anyone, and I don't care who they are has not works, a walk with God, their faith is in vain and is nothing more than a demonic faith demonstrated in the book of James.

Your accusations of Piper are pointless and unfortunately show you have a deep lack of understanding the practices of NT believers, nor do you possess an adequate Scriptural understanding of the marks of true believers. In fact you tend to mock such things and claim it to be 'works salvation' further showing your vast misunderstanding of the Christian life.

You continually point to a time when someone prayed a prayer. Praying a prayer doesn't prove anything eternal, there are more tests that make that prayer valid or invalid in the NT. Scripture points beyond that rudimentary example in many instances such as the context of 1 Thess. 1, the book of 1 John, 1 Peter 1 &c. But as is your custom you will argue against these and turn them into works salvation which is actually something that should concern you greatly as to why you do such things.

There are greater levels of assurance than 'Do you believe Jesus died, was buried and rose again and came to save you?' 'Yes!' proclaims the believer -- and you are stuck only there spiritually and have not progressed in understanding or Spiritual knowledge refusing to see the other levels of assurance and evidence of being truly born again. Only babes in Christ remain on this level of understanding.

That you need one to explain for you what Holy Spirit witness assurance means, how one knows it in his soul, how it works &c is confounding. By the way, that is yet another higher level of assurance. There are more levels.

 

[Winman]

What a horror for Piper to make such statements!

The Epistles say the same things as Piper, thus he is using the Scriptures which also tell us to do things. That you have a problem with this is a commentary upon you.

If anyone, and I don't care who they are has not works, a walk with God, their faith is in vain and is nothing more than a demonic faith demonstrated in the book of James.

Your accusations of Piper are pointless and unfortunately show you have a deep lack of understanding the practices of NT believers, nor do you possess an adequate Scriptural understanding of the marks of true believers. In fact you tend to mock such things and claim it to be 'works salvation' further showing your vast misunderstanding of the Christian life.

You continually point to a time when someone prayed a prayer. Praying a prayer doesn't prove anything eternal, there are more tests that make that prayer valid or invalid in the NT. Scripture points beyond that rudimentary example in many instances such as the context of 1 Thess. 1, the book of 1 John, 1 Peter 1 &c. But as is your custom you will argue against these and turn them into works salvation which is actually something that should concern you greatly as to why you do such things.

There are greater levels of assurance than 'Do you believe Jesus died, was buried and rose again and came to save you?' 'Yes!' proclaims the believer -- and you are stuck only there spiritually and have not progressed in understanding or Spiritual knowledge refusing to see the other levels of assurance and evidence of being truly born again. Only babes in Christ remain on this level of understanding.

That you need one to explain for you what Holy Spirit witness assurance means, how one knows it in his soul, how it works &c is confounding. By the way, that is yet another higher level of assurance. There are more levels.

Nice speech, and yet I have showed two articles where Calvinists have admitted that lack of assurance is a MAJOR problem for Calvinists.

You just go on and do your good works, read your Bible, and resolve to be nicer to folks and see if that solves a lack of assurance.

 

[Mexdeaf]

There are plenty of non-Calvinists who lack assurance also. So the point is moot.

 

[preacher4truth]

Winman,

The fact that you continually disregard, repudiate, misapply and misinterpret the NT truth that is presented to you on a regular basis is a solemn and alarming thing to behold.

 

[Winman]

There are plenty of non-Calvinists who lack assurance also. So the point is moot.

Sure, I struggled with it myself at one time, that is how I came to know the solution. I had been misled by some false teaching that caused me to doubt.

Nevertheless, this is a problem Calvinists are especially prone to suffer with, I showed that in the article above.

It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.
Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.
Isn’t this ironic? I have never had a call from an Arminian (or any other believer in conditional election) about this. In my experience, it is only Calvinists who doubt their faith in this way, with such traumatic devastation. Why?

The fellow who wrote this article is a Calvinist himself, so he does not have a bias against Calvinism, he is simply telling what he has observed from his experience.

I can easily see why Calvinists doubt. If you believe Jesus only died for some persons (the elect), then it is absolutely necessary to know you are elect to have firm assurance. This is exactly what this writer shows, he says the issue is over ELECTION.

You guys just don't want to face your Achilles Heel.

 

[DrJamesAch]

"P4T"

There are greater levels of assurance than 'Do you believe Jesus died, was buried and rose again and came to save you?' 'Yes!' proclaims the believer -- and you are stuck only there spiritually and have not progressed in understanding or Spiritual knowledge refusing to see the other levels of assurance and evidence of being truly born again. Only babes in Christ remain on this level of understanding

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

Here we have the sophist confusing justification with sanctification. The holier-than-thou sophist has turned assurance into process of life-long sancitification.

There are no "levels" of assurance, you are either SURE, or you are NOT SURE. There is no "I'm sure, I'm more sure, no I'm really sure, no I'm really REALLY sure".

So a believer professes in Jesus, and then you say, " 'Yes!' proclaims the believer -- and you are stuck only there spiritually and have not progressed in understanding or Spiritual knowledge..." And that's where the fallacy is at. Assurance of salvation is not evidence of spiritual maturity, that's sanctification. Assurance is confidence of ones salvation, - justification. Stop confusing the two.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Sure, I struggled with it myself at one time, that is how I came to know the solution. I had been misled by some false teaching that caused me to doubt.

Nevertheless, this is a problem Calvinists are especially prone to suffer with, I showed that in the article above.


The fellow who wrote this article is a Calvinist himself, so he does not have a bias against Calvinism, he is simply telling what he has observed from his experience.

I can easily see why Calvinists doubt. If you believe Jesus only died for some persons (the elect), then it is absolutely necessary to know you are elect to have firm assurance. This is exactly what this writer shows, he says the issue is over ELECTION.

You guys just don't want to face your Achilles Heel.

I do not see why lack of assurance is more of a problem with one group than another, John Piper notwithstanding. I have never struggled with assurance as a believer in the DoG, but previously I did.

No one is a Christian who is not elect. But there are plenty of people who have elected themselves who are not Christians.

 

[preacher4truth]

"P4T"


"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

Here we have the sophist confusing justification with sanctification. The holier-than-thou sophist has turned assurance into process of life-long sancitification.

And that's exactly what assurance is, it stems from a process of lifelong sanctification. It's intertwined with 2 Peter 1:10 &c.

One more thing, there are some that are actually 'holier-than-thou'. Ponder that for a while.

There are no "levels" of assurance, you are either SURE, or you are NOT SURE. There is no "I'm sure, I'm more sure, no I'm really sure, no I'm really REALLY sure".

You show a profound ignorance of both Scriptural and Spiritual truth here. Read any great revival and see how those used of God entered into these levels themselves of greater experience and assurance. Believers also understand these differing levels of assurance as they grow in understanding the Word. That you don't know this is well, an impugnable indictment upon your own Spiritual maturity level.

So a believer professes in Jesus, and then you say, " 'Yes!' proclaims the believer -- and you are stuck only there spiritually and have not progressed in understanding or Spiritual knowledge..." And that's where the fallacy is at. Assurance of salvation is not evidence of spiritual maturity, that's sanctification. Assurance is confidence of ones salvation, - justification. Stop confusing the two.

Assurance of salvation comes by the Spirit of God. Growing in the Spirit and His imparted knowledge is evidence of spiritual maturation. You're yet again incorrect in your assessment.

Growing in assurance = spiritual maturity. Simply because this is progressive sanctification doesn't mean it divorces itself from maturation. In fact they go hand in hand in ones sincere walk with God. Thus your point is moot. I've met no one who has grown in sanctification that hasn't also matured spiritually.

It's interesting that you consistently bring an argument that isn't well thought out and is readily dismantled.

Wonder why, 'Dr.'? :wavey:

 

[Monster]

I do not see why lack of assurance is more of a problem with one group than another, John Piper notwithstanding. I have never struggled with assurance as a believer in the DoG, but previously I did.

No one is a Christian who is not elect. But there are plenty of people who have elected themselves who are not Christians.

Being a non-cal;

- I read the 5-pointer arguments and see an attitude of absolutism.

- I converse with them and am told that I do not understand the truth, that they do. That my Soteriology is incorrect that theirs is not. That everything is absolutely, unequivocally per-determined with zero human input or involvement. (I understand that this is all anecdotal, and that it's just from my perspective...limited as it is)

- If we small, finite, peon humans can absolutely know what God's absolute determination is theologically absolute and perfectly definable as Cals seem to purport, (from the 5-pointer perspective, specifically) and the Ol' Cal had all his ducks in a row...

It's unthinkable for me to imagine that any true 5-pointer could have the slightest doubt and yet what they believe demands they doubt because of what they believe fosters absolute insecurity and doubt. BUT, it's absolute truth. "The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round..."

This is all stated from one that is happily outside of both extreme camps on this topic. My conclusions are always on the side that "God is bigger, period!"

It's fun to participate though :thumbsup:

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

And that's exactly what assurance is, it stems from a process of lifelong sanctification. It's intertwined with 2 Peter 1:10 &c.

Still not accurate. That is not the definition of assurance. Will explain more below.

You show a profound ignorance of both Scriptural and Spiritual truth here. Read any great revival and see how those used of God entered into these levels themselves of greater experience and assurance. Believers also understand these differing levels of assurance as they grow in understanding the Word. That you don't know this is well, an impugnable indictment upon your own Spiritual maturity level

.

Reading the events of a revival and using their examples of confidences is no different than accepting the experiences of a person who validates their usage of speaking in tongues based on their experience. The Bible interprets experience, not experience interpreting the Bible. Their experiences could be WRONG, and if you are relying on your experience as proof of your assurance, then its wrong.

Assurance of salvation comes by the Spirit of God. Growing in the Spirit and His imparted knowledge is evidence of spiritual maturation. You're yet again incorrect in your assessment.

If a couple is married, some days they feel like they are married, some days they do not. Does the progress of intimacy within the marriage make them any MORE married? Does the fact that an older couple who made it to their 50th wedding anniversary mean they were MORE MARRIED than they were 25 years ago?

If you have a girlfriend or a wife, I certainly hope you never tell her that.

The FACT of marriage is only contingent upon one thing, not a SERIES OF LIFE LONG EVENTS. It is based on a one time decision to say I DO. You can LOVE MORE, and FEEL MORE strongly about each other than you did from the first day you were married, but that doesn't make you MORE married, then the demonstration of a life-long commitment to Christ proves you are MORE SURE or MORE SAVED.

You are either married or you are NOT married. You are either SAVED, or you are NOT SAVED.

Growing in assurance = spiritual maturity. Simply because this is progressive sanctification doesn't mean it divorces itself from maturation. In fact they go hand in hand in ones sincere walk with God. Thus your point is moot. I've met no one who has grown in sanctification that hasn't also matured spiritually.

It's interesting that you consistently bring an argument that isn't well thought out and is readily dismantled.

First part answered above.

And yet the more mature and spiritually superior one must make it heard before all that he (YOU) is more spiritual and more mature. You just keep patting yourself on the back while at the same time claiming to be spiritually superior above everyone else.

The only assurance you have demonstrated is confidence in the flesh

 

[Darrell C]

Really?

This is the war cry of some who misunderstand, dislike, or have an incorrect assumption about the doctrine of election.

Not long ago a preacher told some under him to not even study this doctrine and to stay away from it. He also told others to never study predestination. His reasoning was 'We are not supposed to know these things, they are too high for us (taking a passage as proof-text to support it) so stay away from these things!.

The above statement was made with quite an indignant spirit. The fellow being addressed looked over at me and put his the palms of his hands up and shrugged and reiterated 'I guess we are not to study or know about this'. This was something he told me he really wanted to understand.

Several on this board also hold to a similar thinking along these lines. A straw man was given within another thread that the Reformed 'Can never know if they are elect!' One combatant handed out a rebuke similar to this 'What, is your name written in Psalms?' (like some secret code by implication) due to the fact I disagreed with his position. Again the rebuke was that Calvinists cannot know they are elect.

I will add this as a well known rebuttal (at least it should be in your arsenal) to not studying certain theological issues within Scripture:

'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.' 2 Timothy 3:16

The above passage clearly tells us all Scripture is profitable, and in what usages it is profitable.

What do you say, can a person know if he or she is elect?

By the way, I see election and salvation as one in the same and I don't share a fear of this doctrine nor do I differentiate it as some other class of persons Scripturally.

- Blessings

I've only read a few posts on the first page and this will likely be my only contribution to this thread, so I will just mention this verse...



1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



I would just ask, if we can know that we have eternal life can we not know we are among the elect? And would we ascribe eternal life to any but those among the elect?

God bless.