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No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!
- Thread starter preacher4truth
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DrJamesAch
New Member
STILL doing the same thing. You must not have been determined to "get it". I don't have a problem with the passage at all. There is manner in which the HOW of making your calling and election sure has been explained to you and it's going right over your head. Winman and I have both explained, and you keep quoting the WHAT of assurance, instead of the HOW you know.
"Circular reasoning (also known as paradoxical thinking[1] or circular logic), is a logical fallacy in which "the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with"
You are still avoiding the question. Just admit you can't answer it based on your system of theology and swallow your ego!
Yup, I'm clueless about Perspiration of the Saints. I believe in eternal security, but I'm clueless about that too:
John 10:28,
John 5:24,
1 Peter 1:5,
John 5:24,
Acts 16:31,
Colossians 3:3,
Ephesians 1:13
John 4:14,
John 11:26,
John 6:35,
John 6:37,
John 6:51,
Romans 8:38,39,
Hebrews 10:14,
John 5:13,
Hebrews 12:2,
Psalm 37:24,
II Timothy 1:12,
John 3:36,
1 Corinthians 3:11-15,
Hebrews 5:9,
Romans 8:29-30,
Ephesians 1:5,
2 Timothy 4:18,
Philippians 1:6,
Romans 10:10 ,
2 Corinthians 5:17,
1 Corinthians 6:19-20,
Ephesians 4:30,
2 Corinthians 1:22
Clueless
:thumbs:preacher4truth
Active Member
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbs:
preacher4truth
Active Member
Note how one refuses to answer whether or not he practices 2 Peter 1:10 & 2 Corinthians 13:5. Those must be 'Calvinist' verses! :smilewinkgrin:
Agreed, you are correct! You're clueless to the truth of both Irresistible Grace and the Perseverance of the Saints. It's apparent due to your erecting straw men and attacking them. Also note the Calvinists who've voted which show you're in total error with your false accusations and straw man myths. Congrats! :thumbs: :laugh:
Agreed, you are correct! You're clueless to the truth of both Irresistible Grace and the Perseverance of the Saints. It's apparent due to your erecting straw men and attacking them. Also note the Calvinists who've voted which show you're in total error with your false accusations and straw man myths. Congrats! :thumbs: :laugh:
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How is any gift of the Spirit imparted? Explain that and then you will know.
You are still not getting it. You have no sure way to know if you are elect. Yes, if you are truly elect (but you have no way of knowing that), you will persevere to the end. But you don't know that.
Look again at what John Piper said:
John Piper said lack of assurance was a MAJOR problem for his parishioners. It was not that they doubted Jesus rose from the dead or questions like that, it was because they were not sure they were the elect. They asked, "Am I in (the elect)?, Am I saved?
You have no idea if you are elect or not, so you go about doing works to prove to yourself that you are elect. That is nothing but works salvation.
As soon as you fail (and you will), you will doubt your salvation. Piper himself said he struggled with his own salvation, will you do better?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Did John Piper really advise those who were questioning their salvation to "do good works to prove you are the elect"? Please show me that.
Here is part of what he said, I will let you decide for yourself what it means.
Sure seems like he is suggesting works to me, what do you say?
It is - that's why you should study the Scriptures and discover it for yourself.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I don't see anything in what you posted that suggests John Piper is telling people who struggle with assurance to "do good works to prove you are elect". He doesn't use that language and I don't believe he even suggests it.
He quotes scripture, and states what is obviously true. The expectation of scripture is that those who are saved by faith in Christ will have a transformed life devoted to Him.
I went to Piper's website to find out directly from him what he believes:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/how-to-confirm-your-call-and-election
In a section on assurance of your call and election, he gives what he calls 6 "tests". He points people to scripture... to the necessity of belief in Christ and the love for one another. He urges his readers to study God's Word and to seek Christ in prayer. Not once did I see anything about "doing good works to prove you are elect".
I don't really think you're presenting what he believes in an accurate manner, IMHO
preacher4truth
Active Member
There is absolutely nothing in what Piper stated that supports your accusation.
Nothing.
In fact, he was Scriptural about the entire thing. There are marks of true believers and of false. That concept is Biblical. Additionally many believers struggle with whether they are saved or not at times.
He isn't. Piper gives him the answer he is looking for from me and Aaron and he rejects it.
preacher4truth
Active Member
It's who it's coming from. Truth doesn't matter to some if it comes from a certain source.
I do not believe I have misrepresented Piper at all, he is still telling you to do certain things.
He says to read the Bible. That is good, but does it prove you are saved?
He says to confess your sins. Again, very good, but how does that assure you? How does it guarantee you are one of the elect?
He says to exalt Christ. Very good, but does that prove you are saved?
He says to resolve to conquer unloving attitudes and behavior.
Again to plead for forgiveness.
Live for the eternal good of others.
Now, these are all wonderful things that every Christian should do, but exactly how do these things make you sure you are elect?
The problem in Calvinism is that you believe many people ACT saved. They go through all the motions, they act religious, they do good works, but they are not saved. I fail to see how telling a person to do all these good things (and they are all very good things) proves you are saved.
Compare this to a sermon by John R. Rice;
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Book...ks/Dr John Rice/Converts/assurance-chap_1.htm
Now, this sermon can be summed up simply as Believe the Word of God.
It is that simple, believe the promises of God.
Piper NEVER said to simply believe God's promises. The scriptures say, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13)
If you have called on Jesus sincerely to forgive your sins and save you, and you trust and depend upon him only to save you, you can know for an absolute certainty you are saved.
It is amazing that Calvinists rarely claim the word of God to assure themselves of salvation.
He says to read the Bible. That is good, but does it prove you are saved?
He says to confess your sins. Again, very good, but how does that assure you? How does it guarantee you are one of the elect?
He says to exalt Christ. Very good, but does that prove you are saved?
He says to resolve to conquer unloving attitudes and behavior.
Again to plead for forgiveness.
Live for the eternal good of others.
Now, these are all wonderful things that every Christian should do, but exactly how do these things make you sure you are elect?
The problem in Calvinism is that you believe many people ACT saved. They go through all the motions, they act religious, they do good works, but they are not saved. I fail to see how telling a person to do all these good things (and they are all very good things) proves you are saved.
Compare this to a sermon by John R. Rice;
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Book...ks/Dr John Rice/Converts/assurance-chap_1.htm
Now, this sermon can be summed up simply as Believe the Word of God.
It is that simple, believe the promises of God.
Piper NEVER said to simply believe God's promises. The scriptures say, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13)
If you have called on Jesus sincerely to forgive your sins and save you, and you trust and depend upon him only to save you, you can know for an absolute certainty you are saved.
It is amazing that Calvinists rarely claim the word of God to assure themselves of salvation.
Precisely....he is saying that in order to have assurance, he lists a bunch of....................dum dum dum.....
WORKS. Just as you said.
NO, Piper didn't exactly say "good works" will give you assurance. He doesn't have to, and he knows he can't. But what he will do is list a bunch of works and say that those will give you assurance.
Our Calvinist brethren are pretending that it is signifigant that what is obviously true (that Piper tells people to rely on a list [of works]) that "Works" is not the key to their assurance simply because they don't willingly come right out and say it.
This is not surprising. Other than a few honest Calvinists over the years (like Pink) they won't come right out and say: "God doesn't love the vast bulk of humanity" either.
You don't HAVE to be willing to come out and SAY it for it to be true. It just has to be inherent in the system.
I think this is P4T's reason for mistaking what are Reductio ad absurdum arguments for "straw-men". He thinks that Calvinists have to come right out and actually SAY what they believe rather than couch what they actually believe in Arminian terminology. Don't hold your breath. They do it every time they tell a sinner "God loves you".
No one is arguing that Calvinists ADMIT they are relying on their Good works for assurance. But simply that it is so. That and some inner "feelings" which they must assume are the H.S. without any evidence other than......................Works.
But Winman is correct. It is never so simple as merely assuming that placing one's trust in Jesus Christ and repenting and aknowledging his shed blood for your sins is sufficient for them. They have to know that they were "elect" beforehand, and there is no way for them to know that than by looking at what works they do.............................precisely as Piper listed for you.
DrJamesAch
New Member
Nah, we Non Calvies don't actually study the scripture. We all just watched Wheel of Fortune and one day Vanna White flipped over "TULIP" and the rest is history.
DrJamesAch
New Member
I answered it several times by example and testimony. That's what makes you think that the explanations that Winman and I both gave you were not answers because you still don't understand how those verses apply. You are still calling them "PRACTICE" which shows you have no understanding of assurance.
And so the Calvinists voted, and the majority proves the minority are wrong! Jeremy Benthem would be so proud of you. It was the majority that crucified Christ, so I'll take the minority for 1,000 please, Alex.
DrJamesAch
New Member
This is precisely where there is much demonstration of arrogance because Calvinism is primarily philosophical. Without assurance of salvation, the Calvinist is forced to defend their works, but what if someone else's works are better? The debate then becomes who has the most sophistry and without the Calvinist even realizing it, they shift the focus from what Christ has done, to what they have done to persevere, and that proof MUST be in greater weight than the opponent, or else the system of assurance falls flat. In theory, the claim they are persevering through the power of God, but in practice the system is designed to validate salvation by works.
For example, take PT4's statement above, "The majority of Calvinist's voted on here, and so you are wrong". I could have responded with arguments about numerous others that disagree, but then that falls into the trap that the Calvinist wants, to compare your works with their works. It's not that the Calvinist wants to be arrogant, but the system itself gives them no other alternative which is exactly what Paul warned about in Ephesian 2:8-9. I believe there are many sincere Calvinists that are serious about their studies, and actually want to know God, but when pressure is applied to the system, the claws come out by default becomes a system that relies on works is dependent on the ego to defend its validity. It is a natural fleshly response when the system is challenged.
There is a vast difference in explaining that a Christian should have good works as evidence of being converted, which is clearly taught in scripture, and relying on those works as the explanation for validating the assurance of ones salvation. Works follow salvation since God saved us to produce good works. Eph 2:10; but works are not the foundation of our salvation and can not be the explanation that confirms our salvation.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
'By example and testimony'
It's hard to see any example and a testimony via a monitor.
Answer it with words from your mouth via the keyboard.
preacher4truth
Active Member
As we continue, the tally continues to rise against the straw man false accusation that the Calvinists/Reformed/DoG don't know if they're saved or elect. To the contrary Calvinists/Reformed/DoG do, in fact, have full assurance of salvation and election. We're aware enough of Scripture that being elect and saved are synonymous while some anti-calvies tuck tail like a beat dog when they even hear the word elect.
You non-calvies have brought nothing unless you consider straw man arguments, out of context passages, erroneous 'circular reasoning' copout accusations because you just got thumped by the Word, and smart alecked name calling by James bringing 'something'. Nevertheless, congrats non-calvies, you've been owned!!! :thumbsup: :applause:
Not to mention a couple of irrefutable passages proving we can know election, namely 2 Peter 1:10, 1 Thess. 1:4 (and a few other pesky Epistles that call us point blank 'elect').
:smilewinkgrin:
You non-calvies have brought nothing unless you consider straw man arguments, out of context passages, erroneous 'circular reasoning' copout accusations because you just got thumped by the Word, and smart alecked name calling by James bringing 'something'. Nevertheless, congrats non-calvies, you've been owned!!! :thumbsup: :applause:
Not to mention a couple of irrefutable passages proving we can know election, namely 2 Peter 1:10, 1 Thess. 1:4 (and a few other pesky Epistles that call us point blank 'elect').
:smilewinkgrin:
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