No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

[preacher4truth]

Amazing what happens when people pull on the same side of the rope for a change, huh?

Yup. Would to God we would have revival break out in this corrupt nation of ours.

 

[Winman]

Guess what? We agree.Again, we agree that doing "good works" doesn't necessarily mean you are saved.

Correct, so good works can be no real assurance that you are either elect or saved.

Can you and I agree that if a person who has made a profession of faith in Christ isn't doing any good works, based on this passage then that person is in rebellion against God?

Honestly, I do not spend a great deal of time judging my fellow Christian. Not my style.

And can we further agree that if a person lives a life of continuous rebellion toward God by not living a life that is consistent with a profession of faith, that we should not offer that person any assurance of their salvation simply because they once made a profession of faith?

Again, if someone tells me they have trusted Jesus to save them, I tend to believe them. The scripture is full of believers who fell into sin such as Lot, Samson, David, Solomon,... even Noah got drunk and lay naked in his tent. So, I try to remember that all Christians can fall into sin. I have not always been the best Christian myself. Therefore, I try not to judge someone who claims to be a believer.

You have used, in these very posts, words like "sincere" faith or "true" believer... or words to that effect to my best recollection. So you recognize, apparently, there is more to salvation than simply agreeing with what scripture says. Am I wrong here?

Well, if a person really believes the word of God, they are going to know they are a sinner in danger of going to hell. I would believe they really and truly mean it if they pray and ask Jesus to save them.

Now, if you are pestering someone to say a sinner's prayer and it is obvious the person is simply going along with you to get you off their back, then I would doubt a prayer like that.

That said, I have never witnessed a person pressuring anyone to pray the sinner's prayer against their will.

True story- Years ago I used to talk to this young fellow about Jesus, I even gave him some tracts to read. One day I said, You really need to ask Jesus to save you. He answered, I already did that. I was shocked and asked, When did you do that? He said, The first time you gave me one of those Bible tracts. What do you think I am, stupid?? I don't want to go to hell.

You see, if a person REALLY believes the word of God, you won't have any trouble getting them to pray the sinner's prayer.

This was a very rough fellow, his parents were bikers. But I believed him. I didn't pressure him to get saved, he asked Jesus to save him on his own.

 

[HisWitness]

Bingo!:thumbsup:

Luke 12:42-48

The Steward's Servant in this case could choose to do or not to do HIS LORD'S bidding(that which he knew to do)but this same servant--if he goes and does as the Unbelievers,will suffer the same portion as the Unbelievers.

This is speaking of Servants of the Lord--the religious jews and rulers were not his servants neither was God their father,they were the unbelievers.

So this is talking of the LORD"S SERVANTS--going after the ways of the Unbelievers and would suffer the same portion with the Unbelievers.

Anyone else see this this way ?? So you have some of the Lord's Servants NOT doing right until the end--BUT still are Servants of the Lord.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Brother I've always thought of you that way! Shame, shame, shame on you!
laugh:

I second this as well.......Any objective reader of this board knows un-equivocally that I am (and only come across to others as) the very personification and definition of humility.......

Poor Convicted......I publically pray before all that you might one day reach the level of humilty and Christ-likeness which I posses.

Publicans such as yourself...........I pray for, and with all humility :smilewinkgrin:

 

[canadyjd]

Do you agree that we who count ourselves as non-Cals/Reformers/DoG can also begin each day with this same attitude?

I have never suggested I have insight into how you, or any other Christian, begins their day. If you tell me that is how you begin your day, I'll believe you and have no reason to doubt you.

However, there are some "non-cals" who claim to know how "cals" begin their day, and it is not at all consistent with my experience or anyone of the "cals" that I know.

So, it would be wiser, IMHO, not to assume to know what others are thinking (constantly in despair over the issue of "election"), or what others motivations are (you only do good works to try to prove you're saved and elect) and stick to debating what scripture means in the context it was written what that looks like when applied to our lives.

 

[Amy.G]

As part of the WVSDT(West Virginia Space Data Team), we embarked on a trip to the sun. We started out so that we would land at night, so that we wouldn't get burned. While we were there, we actually found a rare breed of dinosaurs that had somehow ended up there. I showed one of them your photo, and they remembered you!!

Well of course they did! I am one unforgettable dino! :laugh:

(I will slap you silly later.) :tongue3:

 

[Winman]

[/SIZE]

Which proves, IMHO, you don't know what it's like to "be a Calvinist". The first thing that pops into my mind when I get out of bed is "Thank you Lord Jesus for saving a sinner like me."

Well, that's YOU. I would be extremely concerned whether I was one of the elect. And according to Piper and the other Calvinist writer I quoted, that is exactly what bothers many Calvinists, and it bothers them VERY MUCH.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Well, that's YOU. I would be extremely concerned whether I was one of the elect. And according to Piper and the other Calvinist writer I quoted, that is exactly what bothers many Calvinists, and it bothers them VERY MUCH.

You make much ado about nothing, and misrepresent Calvinism in doing so.

 

[Winman]

You make much ado about nothing, and misrepresent Calvinism in doing so.

Obviously you did not read the article from the Calvinist writer I quoted;

It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.

Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

Isn’t this ironic? I have never had a call from an Arminian (or any other believer in conditional election) about this. In my experience, it is only Calvinists who doubt their faith in this way, with such traumatic devastation. Why?

So, much ado about nothing? Obviously some people take the question of where they will spend eternity very seriously.

But, if you really don't believe this stuff...

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, that's YOU. I would be extremely concerned whether I was one of the elect. And according to Piper and the other Calvinist writer I quoted, that is exactly what bothers many Calvinists, and it bothers them VERY MUCH.

Winman,

Elect = saved. You haven't caught onto that yet and frankly you just can't accept it, nor do you believe it. You see two different classes there. God sees one.

A serious study of Scripture will assure you of this fact, and it is quite comforting to discover this. Let's look at it like this: All those believers to which Paul, Peter had written, were saved by the power of the Word via the Holy Spirit, and for this reason they called them the elect of God. In other words, God chose them, something you've struggled with accepting for years. Now if you say that is untrue and you do not struggle with this Biblical concept, why not call yourself and accept that you are also elect?

It'll do your soul some good to glorify God in this truth. :thumbsup:

Your 'that is exactly what bothers many Calvinists' is a straw man argument. And even if it is true, it doesn't matter. People struggle with truth about being thus due to their own inner vile nature compared to our God. It's then a natural occurrence when it happens.

But keep in mind, there are folks on both sides of the camp that have doubted their salvation.

- Blessings

 

[preacher4truth]

You make much ado about nothing, and misrepresent Calvinism in doing so.

The interesting thing is the combative statement 'YOU don't know or have any assurance as a Calvinist/Reformed/DoG if you're saved or elect' accusation.

The evidence is in. We do have this assurance.

- Blessings

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You make much ado about nothing, and misrepresent Calvinism in doing so.

He doesn't "mis-represent" Calvinism........he UNDERSTANDS Calvinism Mex........he understands it at a "brass-tacks" level greater than YOU DO actually.

Any inteligent and honest person can see that thus far, (on this thread at least) that Winman and Dr. James and others actually have "thought-through" the Calvinist schema FAAAAARRR better than you or any other actual proclaimed "Calvinist" on this thread has.

There are some "Big-guns" of Calvinism on this board.............they just aren't on THIS thread yet.

Here are the people who understand "Calvinism" better than you:

On our side:
Winman
Van
Skandelon
Q.F. (even though he hasn't the inclination to debate it)
Dr. James

However....on the Calvinist side....there are ALSO some who actually have thought through the system as well and they are (a short-list)
Archangel (no-doubt he knows the system)
Luke (he does too)
Aresman (like Archangel......seems to merely dis-like confrontation even though they are BOTH smarter than anyone who has YET posted on this thread including myself)
JBH

Quite frankly..........unless someone of their Caliber speaks up.................we've seen little or nothing but some incredibly "Gibroni" defenses of Calvinism so far.....

These arguments are getting weak.......and they bore me.

Why don't you guys summon your big-guns? There are some brilliant Calvies on B.B............just none on this thread so far.

Winman knows Calvinism.......in fact.......he understands it better than YOU do.

 

[Aaron]

Winman knows Calvinism.......

No he doesn't. Neither do you. Luther knew it. So did Spurgeon and John Gill, and each embraced it. It is, after all the Gospel.

 

[canadyjd]

He doesn't "mis-represent" Calvinism........he UNDERSTANDS Calvinism Mex........he understands it at a "brass-tacks" level greater than YOU DO actually.

Any inteligent and honest person can see that thus far, (on this thread at least) that Winman and Dr. James and others actually have "thought-through" the Calvinist schema FAAAAARRR better than you or any other actual proclaimed "Calvinist" on this thread has.

There are some "Big-guns" of Calvinism on this board.............they just aren't on THIS thread yet.

Here are the people who understand "Calvinism" better than you:

On our side:
Winman
Van
Skandelon
Q.F. (even though he hasn't the inclination to debate it)
Dr. James

However....on the Calvinist side....there are ALSO some who actually have thought through the system as well and they are (a short-list)
Archangel (no-doubt he knows the system)
Luke (he does too)
Aresman (like Archangel......seems to merely dis-like confrontation even though they are BOTH smarter than anyone who has YET posted on this thread including myself)
JBH

Quite frankly..........unless someone of their Caliber speaks up.................we've seen little or nothing but some incredibly "Gibroni" defenses of Calvinism so far.....

These arguments are getting weak.......and they bore me.

Why don't you guys summon your big-guns? There are some brilliant Calvies on B.B............just none on this thread so far.

Winman knows Calvinism.......in fact.......he understands it better than YOU do.

As DRJAMESACH said,

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise" 2 Cor 10:12

"Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished." Prov 16:5

 

[convicted1]

Well of course they did! I am one unforgettable dino! :laugh:

(I will slap you silly later.) :tongue3:

Sorry, but I'm 42, and you'd be at least 35 years too late to slap me silly.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No he doesn't. Neither do you. Luther knew it. So did Spurgeon and John Gill, and each embraced it. It is, after all the Gospel.

Aaron...he is choosing up sides...

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Winman,

Elect = saved. You haven't caught onto that yet and frankly you just can't accept it, nor do you believe it. You see two different classes there. God sees one.

NO........he DOES believe and understand that........you are simply oblivious to the fact that he is aware of that tautology. <---(look that word up at your leisure) He knows that. If you actually THINK he doesn't.......than.........let the courts decide I guess.

A serious study of Scripture will assure you of this fact, and it is quite comforting to discover this. Let's look at it like this: All those believers to which Paul, Peter had written, were saved by the power of the Word via the Holy Spirit, and for this reason they called them the elect of God. In other words, God chose them, something you've struggled with accepting for years. Now if you say that is untrue and you do not struggle with this Biblical concept, why not call yourself and accept that you are also elect?

It amazes me that you STILL don't get it.....the question is how do YOU "KNOW" that this passage was written to YOU? You still haven't answered the question.......and I think I know why. You aren't "avoiding" the question, nor are you "stone-walling"...........I think you simply seriously don't even understand it.
I don't think you "get" the question.
That's INCREDIBLY sad. There is no more withering an indictment of the American education system than the fact that you HONESTLY don't understand (after 14 pages) the crux of the debate. This is an intellectual train-wreck of Astronomical proportions.
You would have to understand the opposition's argument in order to be "stone-walling"..........but.......you aren't "stone-walling" you just don't understand it.
This is incredible. You would have to have actually thought through your OWN Theological System once or twice to even get the crux of the debate you started........

You haven't.....
You not only DON'T understand the "Arminian" position..........You really don't even understand your OWN position. It's SO SO SOOOOOO obvious.

Brother........you are WAAAAY out of your league..

You don't even understand "Calvinism".

I used to believe that you merely confused "Straw-men" with "Reductios" <---which aren't fallacies...........

No....You simply don't even understand "Calvinism".......you wouldn't recognize an ACTUAL "Straw-man" if it bit you in the face.

Your failure isn't a misunderstanding of informal logic, it's a misunderstanding of Calvinism itself.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

Elect = saved. You haven't caught onto that yet and frankly you just can't accept it, nor do you believe it. You see two different classes there. God sees one.

A serious study of Scripture will assure you of this fact, and it is quite comforting to discover this. Let's look at it like this: All those believers to which Paul, Peter had written, were saved by the power of the Word via the Holy Spirit, and for this reason they called them the elect of God. In other words, God chose them, something you've struggled with accepting for years. Now if you say that is untrue and you do not struggle with this Biblical concept, why not call yourself and accept that you are also elect?

It'll do your soul some good to glorify God in this truth. :thumbsup:

Your 'that is exactly what bothers many Calvinists' is a straw man argument. And even if it is true, it doesn't matter. People struggle with truth about being thus due to their own inner vile nature compared to our God. It's then a natural occurrence when it happens.

But keep in mind, there are folks on both sides of the camp that have doubted their salvation.

- Blessings

It is you that is missing it, it is going right over your head. You have no way to know if you are elect.

You say, I know I am elect because I have believed. That works in the non-Cal systems, because we believe Jesus died for ALL men. It is completely possible for me to have real saving faith, because Jesus died for me for a fact.

You cannot say that. You have no way to know if Jesus died for you. Just because you have convinced yourself Jesus died for you does not make it so. You could be completely self-deceived. In fact, Calvin taught that God gives some men a false faith that seems so real that a man would be deceived. That may very well be the case with you.

Just because you think you have real faith and are the elect doesn't make it so. You can believe a bridge is safe and attempt to drive over it, and it could collapse. What you believe doesn't determine reality.

You can deny that Calvinism causes doubt all you want to, and I can easily prove it does. I just showed an article from a Calvinist writer who says nearly every single person who doubts is a Calvinist, or a form of Calvinist theology.

You should give up while you are behind.

 

[convicted1]

I second this as well.......Any objective reader of this board knows un-equivocally that I am (and only come across to others as) the very personification and definition of humility.......

Poor Convicted......I publically pray before all that you might one day reach the level of humilty and Christ-likeness which I posses.

Publicans such as yourself...........I pray for, and with all humility :smilewinkgrin:

Well, to quote Weird Al Yankovic from the song "Amish Paradise", "Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart? Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art."

And furthermore, "A local boy kicked me in the butt last week, I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek."

 

[HeirofSalvation]

No he doesn't. Neither do you. Luther knew it. So did Spurgeon and John Gill, and each embraced it. It is, after all the Gospel.

You see..........That's sheerly stupid......

Debate the issue as it stands.....but, Win DOES undertand "Calvinism". So do I.

You are simply lying or stupid when you say that.

I understand "Calvinism".......I didn't reject it until I did.

Just like the average Calvie......I've NEVER ONCE read ONE SINGLE book which defends "Arminianism" not ONE!...........

I have only and ever read "Calvinist" dogma (as I know Calvinists also do, they NEVER read Arminians).........and I rejected it totally.

I KNOW Calvinism. It is sheer determinist conceit which invariably claims that anyone who doesn't embrace the Calvinist system doesn't "understand" it.

It's not only conceited.........it's un-informed and stupid.