No pastors in the Bible

[Havensdad]

Ask yourself why, out of all the NT and all classical Greek the word ποιμένας is translated "shepherd" but here, and only here it is translated into the Latin word "pastor." Again...show this thread to your congregation and let them decide. What harm is that? Let them decide.

Your argument is ridiculous. Whether you use the word "pastor" or "shepherd" they are both English words, which mean the exact same thing. One comes from German, one comes from Latin, but BOTH are NOW English words, and they are synonymous. They mean EXACTLY the same thing. Every Thesaurus lists "shepherd" and "pastor" as ENGLISH synonyms.

Ephesians does not, by the way, use the verb form, but the NOUN form. It says that "pastors" or "shepherds" are given to the Church, to train the church for the work of the ministry. That is an elder. A pastor, is an elder, is an overseer. All EXACTLY the same thing, no matter what your cult leader says....

 

[alvin]

And you will be lying through your teeth. Your position has absolutely no credibility. NT scholarship totally refutes your untenable position. You are advocating legalistic fanaticism.

NT scholarship fully agrees with the position of Elders were the only overseers of the Church until the corruption of this office occurred in late second, early third century. This is why we have Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church. They use you exact same argument for their priests and bishops.

 

[alvin]

Your argument is ridiculous. Whether you use the word "pastor" or "shepherd" they are both English words, which mean the exact same thing. One comes from German, one comes from Latin, but BOTH are NOW English words, and they are synonymous. They mean EXACTLY the same thing. Every Thesaurus lists "shepherd" and "pastor" as ENGLISH synonyms.

Ephesians does not, by the way, use the verb form, but the NOUN form. It says that "pastors" or "shepherds" are given to the Church, to train the church for the work of the ministry. That is an elder. A pastor, is an elder, is an overseer. All EXACTLY the same thing, no matter what your cult leader says....

Are you clear on the fact it cannot say pastor as that word did not even exist at this time?

 

[Havensdad]

Look again, any Greek text, anywhere...the pastor is not there. Shepherding is a function, not an office and it is a function of Elders.

Liar.

From Thayers:

poimēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes


STRONGS:

poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.

Eph 4:11 και αυτος εδωκεν τους μεν αποστολους τους δε προφητας τους δε ευαγγελιστας τους δε ποιμενας και διδασκαλους

N-APM
Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Accusative (direct object; motion toward; time: "how long")
Number: Plural
Gender: Masculine

 

[alvin]

Are you clear on the fact it cannot say pastor as that word did not even exist at this time?

In addition, when Paul uses the term shepherd it is a matter of fact that the only people in all the Bible that is identified as those who "shepherd" is the Elders. Not only did the word pastor not exist but this is the only place in the Bible where ποιμένας is translated "pastor" and not shepherd like it is everywhere else in all history of the Greek language.

 

[Havensdad]

Are you clear on the fact it cannot say pastor as that word did not even exist at this time?

Nor did the word "Elder."

But the Greek Word for Pastor, Poimen, did indeed exist, and is used here.

 

[alvin]

Liar.

From Thayers:

poimēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes


STRONGS:

poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.

Eph 4:11 και αυτος εδωκεν τους μεν αποστολους τους δε προφητας τους δε ευαγγελιστας τους δε ποιμενας και διδασκαλους

N-APM
Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Accusative (direct object; motion toward; time: "how long")
Number: Plural
Gender: Masculine

Uh...Strong's agrees with me. Thanks anyway. Theyers definition begins with what it means, "shepherd of sheep," "herdsman," then proceeds how it becomes to be used in modern age. Yes, today, since the 16th Century it is used as an office, never before that time and especially never in the Bible.

 

[Havensdad]

In addition, when Paul uses the term shepherd it is a matter of fact that the only people in all the Bible that is identified as those who "shepherd" is the Elders. Not only did the word pastor not exist but this is the only place in the Bible where ποιμένας is translated "pastor" and not shepherd like it is everywhere else in all history of the Greek language.

You are ridiculous. The words pastor and shepherd mean exactly the same thing. You are right that pastors and elders are the same office. However, it is used in its noun form in Ephesians, NOT in a verbal form. Its not just that elders "pastor" or "shepherd" its that they ARE "pastors" or "shepherds".

 

[Havensdad]

Uh...Strong's agrees with me. Thanks anyway. Theyers definition begins with what it means, "shepherd of sheep," "herdsman," then proceeds how it becomes to be used in modern age. Yes, today, since the 16th Century it is used as an office, never before that time and especially never in the Bible.

No, it does not. It says "pastor." As to the rest, that is ridiculous, and stupid. Paul uses it that way. He says "Pastors" or "shpeherds" (same exact meaning) (not "elders who shepherd") are given for the training of the church.

 

[alvin]

You are ridiculous. The words pastor and shepherd mean exactly the same thing. You are right that pastors and elders are the same office. However, it is used in its noun form in Ephesians, NOT in a verbal form. Its not just that elders "pastor" or "shepherd" its that they ARE "pastors" or "shepherds".

Of course it is a noun, it is always a noun unless it is shepherding. The point is this is a person already identified in the NT. Are you implying this is a new office being instituted at this point, equal to the Elders, replacing the Elders, and yet never mentioned again in the Bible, or until the 16 Century? this sounds strange but there are some out there who are saying the pastor is an office, the bishop is an office, the elder is an office and the deacon is an office.

 

[Havensdad]

Of course it is a noun, it is always a noun unless it is shepherding. The point is this is a person already identified in the NT. Are you implying this is a new office being instituted at this point, equal to the Elders, replacing the Elders, and yet never mentioned again in the Bible, or until the 16 Century? this sounds strange but there are some out there who are saying the pastor is an office, the bishop is an office, the elder is an office and the deacon is an office.

Well fist, I am not one of them. Pastor/Elder/Bishop (overseer) are all different names for the same office. Paul was not setting forth to write a theological treatise, where he gave specific names to each office. He was simply delineating the offices according to function. Jesus is also referred to as THE "Good Pastor" and THE "Overseer"....that does not mean He is two different people! Its two names for the SAME OFFICE.

 

[DHK]

I'd be willing to bet that there's no one on this forum more opposed to the clergy-laity division than I am, but that has nothing to do with the facts as I have presented them.

Oh, I doubt that. You lay claim to the title of "bishop" don't you?

 

[alvin]

No, it does not. It says "pastor." As to the rest, that is ridiculous, and stupid. Paul uses it that way. He says "Pastors" or "shpeherds" (same exact meaning) (not "elders who shepherd") are given for the training of the church.

Lets keep this simple by agreeing it is not possible for a 14th century Latin word to be in a first century Greek document. So please use the Greek translation, shepherd. Then I can better understand what you are trying to say. Now, show where the shepherd is a office in the church or show where a shepherd is told to train the church in anything. Please do not quote Eph 4:11 for these are the Elders that have been specifically told by the same author writing Ephesians that they are to shepherd the Church. Or, is Paul instituting a new office in 4:11? One never mentioned before or after.

 

[Zenas]

By the way, can you provide me an example of Virgil of Virgil using the word pastor in Latin, not a translation but in his works?

Here it is and it was a whole lot easier than I thought it would be:

Te quoque, magna Pales, et te memorande canemus
pastor ab Amphryso, vos, silvae amnesque Lycaei.

This is the first two lines of Georgics, Book III.

Here is the English translation: "I’ll sing of you, great Pales, also, and you Apollo, famed shepherd of Amphrysus, and of you, woods and rivers of Mount Lycaeus."

Note the English word "shepherd" that corresponds to the Latin word "pastor."

 

[Havensdad]

Lets keep this simple by agreeing it is not possible for a 14th century Latin word to be in a first century Greek document. So please use the Greek translation, shepherd.

No.You are trying to make a false division. "Shepherd" is NOT a Greek word. Its of German origin originally, and is an Olde English compound word from two "sheep" and "herd." It is of MUCH later origin than "pastor," and would have been completely unknown to anyone earlier than about the 13th century, so if we are going to choose the word for translation, it should be "pastor" not "shepherd." One of the oldest translations of the Bible (Vulgate) uses "pastor" , nearly a millennium* before "shepherd" came into existence.

Then I can better understand what you are trying to say. Now, show where the shepherd is a office in the church or show where a shepherd is told to train the church in anything. Please do not quote Eph 4:11 for these are the Elders that have been specifically told by the same author writing Ephesians that they are to shepherd the Church. Or, is Paul instituting a new office in 4:11? One never mentioned before or after.

It does not say they "are to pastor." It says God has GIVEN PASTORS for the training of the church. So "pastor" is an office, and that office is the same office as elder. Kind of like the president of the U.S. You can refer to him as the "President" or as the "Chief Executive." Or you can refer to your car as "My car" or "my automobile."

 

[alvin]

Well fist, I am not one of them. Pastor/Elder/Bishop (overseer) are all different names for the same office. Paul was not setting forth to write a theological treatise, where he gave specific names to each office. He was simply delineating the offices according to function. Jesus is also referred to as THE "Good Pastor" and THE "Overseer"....that does not mean He is two different people! Its two names for the SAME OFFICE.

The only terms that are synonmous are Elder/Overseer. Not pastor/overseer/Elder.

 

[alvin]

Oh, I doubt that. You lay claim to the title of "bishop" don't you?

Of course not. It is not a title found anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Havensdad]

The only terms that are synonmous are Elder/Overseer. Not pastor/overseer/Elder.

Reject the Bible if you wish. God's Word clearly says that He has given "pastors" for the training of the church. Not "elders who pastors." "Pastors." A type/group of people called "pastor." He names them right along with evangelists and apostles. You are DENYING the Word of God.

 

[alvin]

No.You are trying to make a false division. "Shepherd" is NOT a Greek word. Its of German origin originally, and is an Olde English compound word from two "sheep" and "herd." It is of MUCH later origin than "pastor," and would have been completely unknown to anyone earlier than about the 13th century, so if we are going to choose the word for translation, it should be "pastor" not "shepherd." One of the oldest translations of the Bible (Vulgate) uses "pastor" , nearly a millennium* before "shepherd" came into existence.




It does not say they "are to pastor." It says God has GIVEN PASTORS for the training of the church. So "pastor" is an office, and that office is the same office as elder. Kind of like the president of the U.S. You can refer to him as the "President" or as the "Chief Executive." Or you can refer to your car as "My car" or "my automobile."

No it does not say "Given pastors" it says shepherds and we know who these shpherds are as identified by Paul, the same author of the Epistle you quote, in Acts 20 and also in I Peter.

 

[Havensdad]

No it does not say "Given pastors" it says shepherds and we know who these shpherds are as identified by Paul, the same author of the Epistle you quote, in Acts 20 and also in I Peter.

Why do you insist on using a late origin old English word, instead of the much earlier, "Pastor"? It MOST CERTAINLY DOES say it!

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


I agree that the office of Pastor, is also the office of elder. You are arguing against yourself. The sad part is, you are losing.