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Not an either or atonement.

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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
But it is solely God who does the saving without any merit on the part of what the person, whom He saves, does. Romans 4:5. ". . . to him that worketh not . . . ."
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How can you possibly believe Rom 4:5 when you condition salvation on what a man does ? That concept contradicts Rom 4:5 !
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
If General Redemption were true (it isn't) then Jesus was not powerful enough to save. His sacrifice was not enough.
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A false narrative. No one today can before one's regeneration know to believe Christ paid for one's sins without a general redemption. It is impossible.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
No one today can before one's regeneration know to believe Christ paid for one's sins
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I agree.
37818 said:
without a general redemption.
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All of God's elect believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-7, that Christ died for their sins in a personal way.
Whether or not He died for them or for everyone, was not even on the horizon when I first believed on Christ, for example.

The fact that He died, and that He died and rose again for me, is all I saw and was all that mattered to me as a very young believer.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Everyone, when one believes, believes Christ paid for one's sins.
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Exactly.
It's personal.

Again, whether or not He did that for everyone else doesn't matter to the person who hears the Gospel and believes it...
Only that He died for them;
At least that is all that I cared about at the time.

Wasn't that how it happened for you?
37818 said:
No one today can before one's regeneration know to believe Christ paid for one's sins without a general redemption.
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For one to believe that Christ paid for their sins, in no way depends upon what they will later learn...
Whether or not He did it for everyone, or that He gave Himself for His sheep alone, and makes intercession for them at the right hand of the Father.

For example,
What I later learned through much study and understanding of His word, was that He neither gave Himself for the "goats", neither does He care for them...
They are not His sheep.

They are cursed...the kingdom was not prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-46 ), neither is there any place for them in the kingdom of God ( Revelation 21:7-8 ).

To illustrate this,
I look at John 17 ( and many other things He had to say in many places, including what He had His apostles write to the churches ), and the fact that He did not pray for the world, but for those whom God the Father had given to Him out of the world ( Isaiah 8:18, Hebrews 2:13, John 17:2 ).
As Ephesians 2:10 says, only believers ( those who believe from the heart and confess with the mouth, Romans 10:8-10 ) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

That is why He will tell those He never knew,
that He never knew them ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

His attention and purpose were never towards those who would never believe, as they were not and are not His sheep that He came to seek and to save.
 
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37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
Exactly.
It's personal.

Again, whether or not He did that for everyone else doesn't matter to the person who hears the Gospel and believes it...
Only that He died for them;
At least that is all that I cared about at the time.

Wasn't that how it happened for you?

For one to believe that Christ paid for their sins, in no way depends upon what they will later learn...
Whether or not He did it for everyone, or that He gave Himself for His sheep alone, and makes intercession for them at the right hand of the Father.

For example,
What I later learned through much study and understanding of His word, was that He neither gave Himself for the "goats", neither does He care for them...
They are not His sheep.

They are cursed...the kingdom was not prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:31-46 ), neither is there any place for them in the kingdom of God ( Revelation 21:7-8 ).

To illustrate this,
I look at John 17 ( and many other things He had to say in many places, including what He had His apostles write to the churches ), and the fact that He did not pray for the world, but for those whom God the Father had given to Him out of the world ( Isaiah 8:18, Hebrews 2:13, John 17:2 ).
As Ephesians 2:10 says, only believers ( those who believe from the heart and confess with the mouth, Romans 10:8-10 ) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

That is why He will tell those He never knew,
that He never knew them ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

His attention and purpose were never towards those who would never believe, as they were not and are not His sheep that He came to seek and to save.
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The general redemption is effectively what is believed. The Scripture explicitly teaches both the general redemption and the particular.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Saying this makes you feel better, but it doesn't change what the texts say.
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It doesn't make me feel better, that has nothing to do with it. You have yet to show one text that shows a general redemption without you projecting onto the text.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The general redemption is effectively what is believed.
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I agree that in many so-called churches today, that is what is preached and believed...
But that isn't what I believed when I first heard the word of God in 1978.

Back then I knew I was a sinner, and I believed on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins during the preaching of His word.
All I cared about at the time was that He died for me.

I knew nothing past that, although the Independent Baptist church I grew up in did indeed teach a "general redemption" and I came to believe it for a time.
I stopped believing that several years ago when I gradually came to understand, through my ongoing studies in the Scriptures, what was accomplished on the cross and for whom it was accomplished.
37818 said:
The Scripture explicitly teaches both the general redemption and the particular.
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I'm sorry, but I find that I must disagree...
and state that no it does not, but to many it does appear to.

That said, I can see that we are in profound disagreement on this subject and that it will, in all probability, never change.


I wish you well, sir,
and may the Lord bless you in many ways.
 
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37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
I'm sorry, but I find that I must disagree...
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Luke 22:20-21, ". . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ." The denial of this originates with the irregular churches.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Luke 22:20-21, ". . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ." The denial of this originates with the irregular churches.
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So Jesus paid for the sins of the one doomed to destruction as was already written? Good luck arguing that one.
 
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