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Featured Not an either or atonement.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jan 13, 2022.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for BELIEVERS. I'm not evangelizing believers am I?
     
    #61 Reformed1689, Jan 29, 2022
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    All of
    ALl of them. You are reading into it a general redemption.
     
    #62 Reformed1689, Jan 29, 2022
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The whole chapter excludes the non elect.
    Do the unsaved have peace with God ,are they justified by faith?...vs1
    Do the ungodly have access by faith?
    Do they stand in faith?...rejoice in hope?....vs2
    Do they glory in tribulations? Vs3
    Patience, hope,?vs4
    Do they have the Holy Ghost?...vs5
    You have no biblical idea how to read and understand this passage, or several others.
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Jan 29, 2022
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    When you accuse me of what I have not claimed and do not believe. What does that make you? A ____.
    In Romans 4:5 it explicitly states, ". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, . . ."
     
    #64 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So am I to believe that you really do not believe Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . ."?
     
    #65 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:1, ". . . Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ."
    The unsaved are unsaved because of unbelief, are they not? That text does not speak of the unsaved.
    Yes, because we who believe were ungodly per Romans 5:8, ". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."
    Romans 5:2, ". . . By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. . . ." We were the ungodly before we were saved.
    Romans 5:3, ". . . And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; . . ." Do we? And if any of us are not?
    Romans 5:4, ". . . And patience, experience; and experience, hope: . . ." Do we? And if any of us are not?
    Romans 5:5, ". . . And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. . . ." Romans 8:9, ". . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . ."
    The issue of this thread is both the general redemption and the particular redemption are true. I deny neither. To deny either one is not understanding the Scriptures.
     
    #66 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The gospel is to be preached to the unbelievers that, ". . . how that Christ died for our sins . . ." of the unbelievers to hear and to believe for themselves.
     
    #67 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You totally miss the point here.
    Of course the elect were ungodly sinners before being saved.
    Vs.8 is NOT an exception to include everyone.
    You pull it out of context and try to make it universal...when Paul clearly got it particular.
     
    #68 Iconoclast, Jan 29, 2022
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Universalism is not what the word of God teaches.
    Romans 5:8 must be understood as referring to a general redemption. The fact of particular redemption does not disallow the general redemption. The general redemption is what the Romans 5:8 teaches. ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ."
     
    #69 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Today no one can know Christ died for one without believing Christ died for one. That requires the general redemption at the start to be accepted. There is no exception.
     
    #70 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You can remain in your error.
    No one can force truth upon you.
    The only redemption is particular and Covenant redemption of the elect.
    Sorry you and others do not approve of this revealed truth.
    The Apostles taught Jesus saves sinners...they never told a crowd;
    Jesus loves you all.
    Jesus died for all men ever born.
     
    #71 Iconoclast, Jan 29, 2022
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The word of God in the New Testament indeed teaches particular redemption. Not at issue.
    The word of God in the New Testament indeed teaches
    the general redmeption. Luke 22:20-21. 1 Timothy 2:4-6. 2 Peter 2:1. Etc. Some hard core Calvinists deny this fundamental truth.
     
    #72 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No....some like you deny the meaning of the words.
    You describe an atonement that does not atone.A redemption that does not redeem. A propitiation that does not turn away wrath. Sort of like saved people who do not get saved
     
    #73 Iconoclast, Jan 29, 2022
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You misconstrue and twist what you do not want to agree with. A case in point, Luke 22:20-21, ". . . the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ." Explicitly the plural you includes the betrayer at the table. And we know the betrayer was not saved.
     
    #74 37818, Jan 29, 2022
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Like I said...you can hold on to error as long as you want to.
     
    #75 Iconoclast, Jan 29, 2022
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Scripture reference?
     
    #76 Reformed1689, Jan 29, 2022
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I believe Rom 4:5 but I see no evidence you do since you condition salvation on what a person does.
     
    #77 Brightfame52, Jan 30, 2022
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 5:8, ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ."
     
    #78 37818, Jan 30, 2022
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    But it is solely God who does the saving without any merit on the part of what the person, whom He saves, does. Romans 4:5. ". . . to him that worketh not . . . ."
     
    #79 37818, Jan 30, 2022
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Already addressed this...
     
    #80 Reformed1689, Jan 30, 2022
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