Not an either or atonement.

[Reformed1689]

Void of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

Yes, for BELIEVERS. I'm not evangelizing believers am I?

 

[Reformed1689]

All of

Per what verse, and what is being read into said verse?

ALl of them. You are reading into it a general redemption.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why would.Romans 5:8 exclude anyone? There is nothing in said text to suggest that anyone is excluded.

The whole chapter excludes the non elect.
Do the unsaved have peace with God ,are they justified by faith?...vs1
Do the ungodly have access by faith?
Do they stand in faith?...rejoice in hope?....vs2
Do they glory in tribulations? Vs3
Patience, hope,?vs4
Do they have the Holy Ghost?...vs5
You have no biblical idea how to read and understand this passage, or several others.

 

[37818]

You admitted it, that is salvation by works, conditioned on man.

When you accuse me of what I have not claimed and do not believe. What does that make you? A ____.
In Romans 4:5 it explicitly states, ". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, . . ."

 

[37818]

You still conditioning salvation on works, a requirement.

So am I to believe that you really do not believe Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . ."?

 

[37818]

The whole chapter excludes the non elect.
Do the unsaved have peace with God ,are they justified by faith?...vs1

Romans 5:1, ". . . Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ."
The unsaved are unsaved because of unbelief, are they not? That text does not speak of the unsaved.

Do the ungodly have access by faith?

Yes, because we who believe were ungodly per Romans 5:8, ". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."

Do they stand in faith?...rejoice in hope?....vs2

Romans 5:2, ". . . By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. . . ." We were the ungodly before we were saved.

Do they glory in tribulations? Vs3

Romans 5:3, ". . . And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; . . ." Do we? And if any of us are not?

Patience, hope,?vs4

Romans 5:4, ". . . And patience, experience; and experience, hope: . . ." Do we? And if any of us are not?

Do they have the Holy Ghost?...vs5

Romans 5:5, ". . . And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. . . ." Romans 8:9, ". . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . ."

You have no biblical idea how to read and understand this passage, or several others.

The issue of this thread is both the general redemption and the particular redemption are true. I deny neither. To deny either one is not understanding the Scriptures.

 

[37818]

Yes, for BELIEVERS. I'm not evangelizing believers am I?

The gospel is to be preached to the unbelievers that, ". . . how that Christ died for our sins . . ." of the unbelievers to hear and to believe for themselves.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 5:1, ". . . Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ."
The unsaved are unsaved because of unbelief, are they not? That text does not speak of the unsaved.

Yes, because we who believe were ungodly per Romans 5:8, ". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . ."

Romans 5:2, ". . . By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. . . ." We were the ungodly before we were saved.

Romans 5:3, ". . . And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; . . ." Do we? And if any of us are not?

Romans 5:4, ". . . And patience, experience; and experience, hope: . . ." Do we? And if any of us are not?

Romans 5:5, ". . . And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. . . ." Romans 8:9, ". . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . ."

The issue of this thread is both the general redemption and the particular redemption are true. I deny neither. To deny either one is not understanding the Scriptures.

You totally miss the point here.
Of course the elect were ungodly sinners before being saved.
Vs.8 is NOT an exception to include everyone.
You pull it out of context and try to make it universal...when Paul clearly got it particular.

 

[37818]

You totally miss the point here.
Of course the elect were ungodly sinners before being saved.
Vs.8 is NOT an exception to include everyone.
You pull it out of context and try to make it universal...when Paul clearly got it particular.

Universalism is not what the word of God teaches.
Romans 5:8 must be understood as referring to a general redemption. The fact of particular redemption does not disallow the general redemption. The general redemption is what the Romans 5:8 teaches. ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ."

 

[37818]

Today no one can know Christ died for one without believing Christ died for one. That requires the general redemption at the start to be accepted. There is no exception.

 

[Iconoclast]

Universalism is not what the word of God teaches.
Romans 5:8 must be understood as referring to a general redemptiono. The fact of particular redemption does not disallow the general redemption. The general redemption is what the Romans 5:8 teaches. ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ."

You can remain in your error.
No one can force truth upon you.
The only redemption is particular and Covenant redemption of the elect.
Sorry you and others do not approve of this revealed truth.
The Apostles taught Jesus saves sinners...they never told a crowd;
Jesus loves you all.
Jesus died for all men ever born.

 

[37818]

You can remain in your error.
No one can force truth upon you.
The only redemption is particular and Covenant redemption of the elect.
Sorry you and others do not approve of this revealed truth.
The Apostles taught Jesus saves sinners...they never told a crowd;
Jesus loves you all.
Jesus died for all men ever born.

The word of God in the New Testament indeed teaches particular redemption. Not at issue.
The word of God in the New Testament indeed teaches
the general redmeption. Luke 22:20-21. 1 Timothy 2:4-6. 2 Peter 2:1. Etc. Some hard core Calvinists deny this fundamental truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

The word of God in the New Testament indeed teaches particular redemption. Not at issue.
The word of God in the New Testament indeed teaches
the general redmeption. Luke 22:20-21. 1 Timothy 2:4-6. 2 Peter 2:1. Etc. Some hard core Calvinists deny this fundamental truth.

No....some like you deny the meaning of the words.
You describe an atonement that does not atone.A redemption that does not redeem. A propitiation that does not turn away wrath. Sort of like saved people who do not get saved

 

[37818]

No....some like you deny the meaning of the words.
You describe an atonement that does not atone.A redemption that does not redeem. A propitiation that does not turn away wrath. Sort of like saved people who do not get saved

You misconstrue and twist what you do not want to agree with. A case in point, Luke 22:20-21, ". . . the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ." Explicitly the plural you includes the betrayer at the table. And we know the betrayer was not saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

You misconstrue and twist what you do not want to agree with. A case in point, Luke 22:20-21, ". . . the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ." Explicitly the plural you includes the betrayer at the table. And we know the byoetrayer was not saved.

Like I said...you can hold on to error as long as you want to.

 

[Reformed1689]

The gospel is to be preached to the unbelievers that, ". . . how that Christ died for our sins . . ." of the unbelievers to hear and to believe for themselves.

Scripture reference?

 

[Brightfame52]

So am I to believe that you really do not believe Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . ."?

Yeah I believe Rom 4:5 but I see no evidence you do since you condition salvation on what a person does.

 

[37818]

Scripture reference?

Romans 5:8, ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ."

 

[37818]

Yeah I believe Rom 4:5 but I see no evidence you do since you condition salvation on what a person does.

But it is solely God who does the saving without any merit on the part of what the person, whom He saves, does. Romans 4:5. ". . . to him that worketh not . . . ."

 

[Reformed1689]

Romans 5:8, ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ."

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