Not under law but under grace.

[trustitl]

Not under law but under grace

Quote
HP: First, I would say that you have no Scriptural basis to base the notion that the death spoken of here is mere physical death.

Here is the context of James 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

:13 Is any among you afflicted?
:14 Is any sick among you?
:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

You might not agree with it but there is support for it.

Quote
HP "If you desire to save a soul from death, the death spoken of here can be none other than spiritual death, i.e., eternal separation from God."

Interpreting "death" to be spiritual is where the lack of scriptural support lies. It definitely has theological support but not clear scripture.

Quote
HP "Anyone that passes from this life to the next without fulfilling the conditions of forgiveness, i.e., repentance and faith as testified by a clear conscience before God and man, is deceived as to their standing before God."

James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed."
This verse is not dealing with our standing before God because confessing sins to another man has nothing to do with salvation.

We do not "keep" ourselves by confessing our sins. Rather we "are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
I Peter 1:5

The Catholics have their confessionals and priests. The Baptists have their revivalists and alter calls. Agnostics have their therapists. Talking to someone about your struggles is fine but it won't get you saved or keep you saved.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote
"Forgiveness is granted only for sins that are past and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith."

GE

This is the denial of Grace and a mockery of forgiveness.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

trustiti
"as long as we are in the flesh we cannot keep the law. And keeping the law is the only way to please God"

GE

As long as we are in the flesh we cannot keep the law. Yes. And that will be for as long as we are in the flesh, this side of the grave, even though we were born again.

And keeping the law is NO way to please God; for us to please God shall always be impossible, but to be found in Christ -- with, all our sins. If without a single one of our sins we think we are in Christ, we deceive ourselves.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: "Forgiveness is granted only for sins that are past and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith."

GE:This is the denial of Grace and a mockery of forgiveness.

HP: How is this a denial of grace? How does this make a mockery of forgiveness?

 

[trustitl]

Not under law but under grace

QUOTE
GE "And that will be for as long as we are in the flesh, this side of the grave, even though we were born again.


The scriptures says that anybody that has the Spirit is not in the flesh

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Actually keeping all of the law pleases God.

Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Psalm 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

 

[trustitl]

I am re-posting the original question so it doesn't get lost in our tangents.:thumbs:

There clearly is disagreement over some issues surrounding this, but I am really looking for what you think about the questions regarding this verse.

There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the 10 commandments due to the recent poll. I would like to see the following commented on:

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

What is grace?
How does being under grace make it so sin no longer has dominion over us?
What was the connection of sin having dominion over us and being under the law?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: First, I would say that you have no Scriptural basis to base the notion that the death spoken of here is mere physical death.

TrustitL: Here is the context of James 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

:13 Is any among you afflicted?
:14 Is any sick among you?
:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

You might not agree with it but there is support for it.

HP: If you are correct, then tell me if I can logically assume the following, why or why not. When one converts a sinner from the error of his way he heals him physically so he will not die physically.

 

[billwald]

All humans after the flood were obligated by the Noahic covenant but there isn't a single reference in the 613 positive and negative statements to one's status in the next life or to gentiles in San Antonio.

 

[D28guy]

From the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chapters of Galaciens...

The Born again child of God has been completly freed from the bondage of, and condemnation of, the Law...

"16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

We are said there to have died to the Law.

"19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

We are instructed again that we are to consider ourselves to be dead to the Law, and if we use it to claim rightiousness then Christ died in vain.

"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

We are instructed there that we have been redeemed from the law, and that the law is a "curse" that we have been redeemed from.

"19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

We find there that the primary purpose of the Law is to cause the lost person to understand his lost and hopeless condition, and in time drive them to Christ.

"24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Once we have come to our senses and surrendered ourself to Christ...being born of the Spirit through faith alone in Christ...the Law has fullfilled its primary purpose.

And as christians we are to walk in the "newness of the Spirit", and not the "oldness of the letter"(Rom 7:6), because "the letter kills", but the "Spirit gives life"(2 Cor 3:6).

The Law is an instrument of death, not life. The Holy Spirit is the LIVING influence who guides us as christians.



Grace and Peace,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

"Any believer that is living in violation of God’s moral law and is doing despite the Spirit of grace, is deceived as to their standing before God."

Then nobody is saved. Not me, not you nor anyone else. All of us live in violation of Gods moral law all the time because none of us are sinlessly perfect. None of us ever reach the point of sinless perfection in this life. God says "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Thats even one sin in our entire life, and we are condemned.

"Forgiveness is granted only for sins that are past..."

No. All of our sins were placed on Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Every one of them. Whether they are past or present or future is 100% irrelavent. How many of your sins were "in the past" 2000 years ago when Christ died for them? How many were in the future 2000 years ago?

Why do you think Christ cried "It is FINISHED!" from the cross? Because the atonement had taken place. Gods verdict on you and me and everyone else was "Guilty!". Jesus Christ stepped in and said "I'll take that guilt for them, and pay their death penalty" And He did. For ALL of our sins. The scripture says The wages of sin is DEATH. Christ took it. And its credited to us because God tells us...

"He who knew no sin, became sin, so that we might become the rightiousness of God in Him" (Christ)

The scriptures tell us...

"The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

Notice how God refers to our sin in the singular each time. "...became sin", and "the iniquity of us all." All of our sins were taken care of one time in that one sacrifice.

Christ: "It...is...finished!"

Its over. The forgiviness issue, regarding salvation, is over.

How many of your sins were "in the past" 2000 years ago when Christ died for them? How many were in the future? Can you see how it doesnt matter?

"...and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith."

The repentance that is required to be justified by God is to repent from not placing our faith in Christ and being born of the Spirit. The changed life with follow that.

"To say that the law can chase one to the cross and no further is true IF one remains faithful and walks in the light as He is in the light from the cross forward until they stand before the Lord in judgment."

Then you believe in a false gospel, and are propagating it. You believe in a gospel of works. Its "kinda God", and "kinda me". "Kinda faith" and "kinda good works."

God says...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And what would boasting include?...

"and that the believer has fulfilled the conditions of repentance and faith....IF one remains faithful and walks in the light as He is in the light from the cross forward until they stand before the Lord in judgment."

To claim that no believer can sin and become guilty before God again and find themselves in need of repentance and renewed forgiveness, without which no man shall see the Lord, is simply pure unadulterated antinomianism and presumes upon the grace of God. David prayed, “Lord, keep thy servant from presumptuous sin.”

Well, it depends if you mean to stay saved or whether you mean the parental forgivness that we experience in this life when we fail. The forgiviness we live in as christians has nothing to do with staying saved as you seem to be saying.

"The notion that a believer can sin with impunity subsequent to Calvary, as is implied by the comment of the law chasing one only as far as Calvary and no further,"...

No christian ever sins with impunity. We know we shouldnt, but we do. We dont want to, but we sometimes do. We grieve about it. We dont love sin like we did as lost people, and we dont revel in it as we did as lost people. I dont know where you get this "sin with impunity" business. But is has nothing to do woth losing salvation when we sin.

"...is the basis for what I believe is the biggest crucial deception to fall upon the Church. God help us before it is too late to see the error and change our minds and hearts as to the end of sin."

I would venture to say that the greatest deception in the christian world today is those who diminish Gods great work on our behalf, and make a mockery of Christ substitutionary work by saying its "up to us" to stay "good enough" to "merit" salvation.

That satanic lie is at its worst in Catholicism with its insidiously complex "works in exchange for merit" system of forgiviness, but the same thing is spread to a lessor extent in other groups.

May God have mercy.

Mike

 

[billwald]

Moses lied?????

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


The Offer of Life or Death

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.


Moses lied to the people???????

 

[BobRyan]

The question was not really addressed.

BR says:
For the natural heart -- the heart set on the flesh DOES not submit to the law of God NEITHER indeed CAN it.

You "quote" the following but left off verse 8.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

In other words: as long as we are in the flesh we cannot keep the law. And keeping the law is the only way to please God.

In this case Paul defines "in the flesh" as "heart/mind SET on the things of the flesh" -- sin.

The mind that is devoted to sin - that is not set on things above .

Paul addresses us "but SET your mind on THINGS ABOVE" by contrast.

in Romans 8 there are TWO groups -- one going to hell and the other to heaven. You have asked that we stop for a moment and consider those who are going to hell. They DO not desire to follow and obey scripture NEITHER indeed CAN they - according to Paul.

He does not say that of the saved. Rather in Rom 6 Paul is clear that the one you obey - is the one you serve -- either sin or righteousness.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Once we have come to our senses and surrendered ourself to Christ...being born of the Spirit through faith alone in Christ...the Law has fullfilled its primary purpose.

And as christians we are to walk in the "newness of the Spirit", and not the "oldness of the letter"(Rom 7:6), because "the letter kills", but the "Spirit gives life"(2 Cor 3:6).

all True.

Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior.

ONCE we come to salvation -- the New Covenant -- the Law is WRITTEN in our HEARTs! - we are a NEW creation -- as Paul said "in my mind I AGREE with the Law of God".

In fact Paul goes so far to say "does our faith ABOLISH the Law of God? God forbid! in fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31. For we now SERVE and OBEY righteousness rather than sin (Romans 6) and sin (law breaking) is no longer "master over us".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

D28Guy: We are said there to have died to the Law.

HP: That is strange, I thought Paul said 'he' did. He also testified of a conscience void of offense. If you are going to say ‘we did’ the 'we' is going to have to be in possession of a like conscience as well.

 

[trustitl]

Concerning all believers being being dead to the law:

HP says : That is strange, I thought Paul said 'he' did. He also testified of a conscience void of offense. If you are going to say ‘we did’ the 'we' is going to have to be in possession of a like conscience as well.

Paul explains how he became dead to the law in the next verse:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

He was. I was. Sounds like D28guy was. I have friends who are too. Others are joining in daily. :godisgood:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

What would you say if I said I exercise myself?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: What would you say if I said I exercise myself?

HP: I would say, to God be the glory! :thumbs: Keep setting the example for those around you that you. God knows we need more examples of professing believers that exercise themselves.

 

[BobRyan]

When the law is "written in your heart" are you dead to it?

Or is this "died to the law" teaching in respect to the condemnation of the law -- your debt the law defines is paid at the cross. As many as have believed have died with him -

Dead to sin (sinning, law breaking)

Dead to the penalty and condemnation of the law.

YET ALIVE with the LAW written on the HEART.

"Do we then ABOLISH the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31. Hence both Paul (Romans 2) and James (James 2) argue that we are to be judged by that Law.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,'' you are doing well.


9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.[/b]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

all True.

Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior.

ONCE we come to salvation -- the New Covenant -- the Law is WRITTEN in our HEARTs! - we are a NEW creation -- as Paul said "in my mind I AGREE with the Law of God".

In fact Paul goes so far to say "does our faith ABOLISH the Law of God? God forbid! in fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31. For we now SERVE and OBEY righteousness rather than sin (Romans 6) and sin (law breaking) is no longer "master over us".

in Christ,

Bob

GE

You are so absolutely Seventh Day Adventist, Bob Ryan! You want the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on your heart'. Other Christians DO, not want to have the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on their hearts', but want Christ Jesus, 'written on their hearts'.

In what respect do you the SDAs and the other Christians, differ? As for the SDAs, as I have said, they want the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on their hearts' - at all costs, by no means somethings else. Why? I know too - just like you know - very well, because the SDAs are afraid they might loose control over the Fourth Commandment which they fear does not fall under the direct jurisprudence or protection of Jesus Christ, because it is not a type of Him, but rests only on the creational arrangement or dispensation of godly obedience.

As for the other Christians who so anxiously desire nothing but 'Christ' within their hearts their Law ... Why would they so fear - yea, loathe - to have the "Ten Letters"-Law 'written on their hearts'? And again I know too - as you know - very well, that they are afraid of the self-same thing as the SDAs! But they, that the Seventh Day Sabbath might become the Sabbath of the LORD your God of also their Lord Jesus Christ! And that will cost them. It will cost them their senseless ramblings against the Ten-Letters-Law of God of millennia; and it will cost them to repent of sin and obstinacy against the Written Word of God. So if they could but receive Christ in their hearts they are relieved of accumalted guilt over many other and their own life-span. It is too horrible to contemplate. But contemplate your situation, SDA, is it any less horrible? Less horrible in that you refuse to receive Christ in turn for your Sabbath? Think about it. You stress man's choice so - you are facing a choice in this respect as sure as you live! "Today, if you hear .... the Law? Or, if you hear MY VOICE - Jesus Christ - do not harden your heart!"

 

[BobRyan]

GE

You are so absolutely Seventh Day Adventist, Bob Ryan! "

I can always count on you to display your classic insight in these discussions GE. Thanks for being so consistent.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR
"Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior."

GE
Bob Ryan, you have defined the difference between free willers and Free Gracers! "Prior to salvation the law condemns pointing out our need of a Savior" versus, After salvation, Christ, is The Law pointing out our need of a Saviour - The Law that at last is able to give Life and whereby the righteous indeed shall live! He has no need of the written Law since He became the Law Incarnated twice: born of Mary both Law and Redeemer God-Man; and Raised from the dead both Law and Redeemer God-Man. The Law no longer engraved on stones brings us to Christ; if it did, why don't the Jew come to Christ? Since Jesus Christ the Law in the Person of the personal Lord and Saviour, is all and the Only that brings or points to Christ. No one comes to the Father unless the Son draws and brings him!