Not under law but under grace.

[BobRyan]

And now back to actual scripture

Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
…
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "" CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.''
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "" THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.''
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "" HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.''
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "" CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE''
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
the promise.
…
18 For [b]if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise;[/b] but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be [b]justified by faith.[/b]
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Everyone under the curse UNTIL they come to faith in Christ -- yes "even today". This is a post-cross NT teaching of Paul.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

Not under law but unde grace.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor

Well stated: we are no longer under the control of the law as a schoolmaster. We now have grace over us.

When a boy goes from 8th grade to 9th grade he is no longer under his old schoolmaster. The way he ran the school no longer applies to him. He now listens to Mr. ...

 

[BobRyan]

True - under the school master of "SCRIPTURE that holds ALL mankind accountable" (Gal 3) the Moral Law spoke the truth that we are sinners. But then "FAITH CAME" as we actively placed our faith in Christ and the Law no longer condemned us.

NOW it is "Written on the tablets of the human heart" for now -- after coming to faith in Christ - we are under the New Covenant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

Not under law

Well, Bob at least your predictable and consistent. Wrong, but predictable and consistent.:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I may always be counted on to pay attention to the inconvenient details of scripture -- just when others had hoped that these details would be ignored.

I am "predictable" that way --

hence my detailed highlight of Gal 3.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bob, Let me ask you this simple question - The Jews look to the Ten Commandments for the Law; Christians look to Christ for the Law --- Is there a difference?

Paul said of the Jews when not yet believers, the Law brought us to Christ. But since Christ has revealed Himself, it is He who draws to Himself. Love is love's reward; Christ is Christ's reward. Like David panted after water in the desert, so his soul panted after the Lord. Who has tasted the Water of Life, no longer needs be forced to the Fountain like a horse.

A believer comes to Christ not because the Law forces him, but because the Father draws him to the Son, like the Son draws him to the Father.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said that HE SPOKE as the Father dictated and that "of My own self I can do nothing".

Christ's message pre-cross was that the "Word of God can not be broken".

Christ never pointed his followers AWAY from the Word of God -- never stated that less importance should be placed on scripture -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Well, Bob at least your predictable and consistent. Wrong, but predictable and consistent.:thumbs:

Accusation and claim - easy to make... and now "the proof"??

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said of the Jews when not yet believers, the Law brought us to Christ. But since Christ has revealed Himself, it is He who draws to Himself. Love is love's reward;

Interesting paraphrase of scripture

But to really make the point stick - I am going to need actual scripture. Since you seem to want to draw something from Gal 3 in the quote above -- go ahead and quote it -- show that your point can be made using the actual words of the text.

A believer comes to Christ not because the Law forces him, but because the Father draws him to the Son, like the Son draws him to the Father.

The Law according to Romans 3 and Gal 3 brings conviction of sin - condemnation and as Christ said in John 16 this is brought home to the sinner via the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[trustitl]

Not under law but under grace

Accusation and claim - easy to make... and now "the proof"??

Bob, you know as well as I do that there is no way to prove to you that you are wrong and that you can prove to me that I am wrong. It is neither of our jobs to do that. I will be faithful to what I believer and you will be faithful to what you believe.


PROOF,n. Websters 1828

2. In law and logic, that degree of evidence which convinces the mind of the certainty of truth of fact, and produces belief. Proof is derived from personal knowledge, or from the testimony of others, or from conclusive reasoning. Proof differs from demonstration, which is applicable only to those truths of which the contrary is inconceivable.

You are under law and are trying to be convinced according to the rules of law and logic. I am dealing with the Gospel which requires faith. I have demonstrated to you why we are not under law but for you it is still inconceivable because you ar holding on to something you won't let go of.

4. Firmness of mind; stability not to be shaken; as a mind or virtue that is proof against the arts of seduction and the assaults of temptation.

Jesus demonstrated things to the Jews but they already had the proof in their hearts.
Mark 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said that HE SPOKE as the Father dictated and that "of My own self I can do nothing".

Christ's message pre-cross was that the "Word of God can not be broken".

Christ never pointed his followers AWAY from the Word of God -- never stated that less importance should be placed on scripture -

The careful unbiased objective Bible reader will instantly detect the scripture references here.

By "contrast" we have --

Originally Posted by trustitl
Well, Bob at least your predictable and consistent. Wrong, but predictable and consistent.:thumbs:

Bob said
Accusation and claim - easy to make... and now "the proof"??

Scripture please --

And yet "still" we get more...

Trustit
Bob, you know as well as I do that there is no way to prove to you that you are wrong and that you can prove to me that I am wrong.

You are still "dancing" instead of going to the Bible for sola-scriptura "proof".

Bible please.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus demonstrated things to the Jews but they already had the proof in their hearts.
Mark 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

This reference neither supports your wild claims nor disproves my argument above...

Try something that addresses the point.

Trustit
Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Paul is speaking of paganism in Gal 4 as the weak and beggarly elements since there are no years to "observe" in scripture. The idea of twisting this statement about "weak and beggarly elements" as being a reference to the Word of God and not paganism -- is an extreme position taken by those who reject the Law of God that Paul says we are to "ESTABLISH" in Romans 3:31.

But EVEN in Romans 14 Paul argues for the ceremonial observances saying that these SHOULD be respected in all case even by those who do not choose to observe them -- this if FAR from arguing that anyone keeping the ceremonial annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 are "a return to paganism" or "believing in vain" in the Gospel as you apprently would try to wrench the idea.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 4
7 therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

This ends the section applicable to all mankind “in general” apart from anything specific at Galatia.

But then Paul starts to focus “specifically” on the condition of the pagans-turned-Christian IN the church of Galatia. Comparing their condition before salvation with their condition afterwards and the errors they were starting to lapse BACK into.

Lets take a look at Gal 4 again where it specifically focuses on the error of the gentiles in Galatia worshipping pagan idols.

Gentiles who "did not even KNOW the ONE true creator God".

Gentiles who worshipped "THINGS" that were "BY NATURE" not gods at all.

Gentiles who are "turning back AGAIN" to the "Weak and elemental things of the WORLD"

Gentiles who USED to observe "days and months and seasons and years." in their old system of emperor worship and are now introducing something like it mixed with Christianity.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods[b/].
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

The reference here for this GENTILE church composed of former pagans who USED to worship those things that “by nature were NO gods at all” and in fact as pagans they did not even KNOW of the TRUE God of scripture – is that they should not return to paganism.

This mix of scripture and paganism is often confronted by Paul –

“The commandments of men” Col 2:22. Titus 1:14 shows the source of this to be the Jewish “myths” being promoted primarily from “outside” the Christian church. (Which shows the tight link between Christians and Jews in the first century – with both attending the same worship services Acts 15: 21)

Titus 1
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men[/b] who turn away from the truth.


The term “elementary principles of the world” is a reference to the base superstition of paganism


Gal 4
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain


Obviously the problem with these Galatians pre-conversion is not about Gentiles in Galatia being obedient to the Law of God prior to being a Christian!
Obviously the problem IS about …

Gal 4
8 however at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no Gods.



Clearly Paul addresses the gentile churches in Galatia and mentions that in their lost state - before becoming Christian they were worshipping false gods. The Hebrew nation-church by contrast was established by the one true God of creation who was to send his only son as messiah-Christ-savior was known by the Hebrews and Paul agrees to this in Romans 3:1-3 as well as his reference to Timothy's up-bringing.


Gal 4

9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
[

 

[BobRyan]

More Fun in Galatians 4!!

Lev 19: 26 You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor observe times (KJV).

Bible scholars have long recognized the pagan system being referenced here.[/b]

Martin Luther "Almost all doctors have interpreted this reference as concerning the astrological days of the Chaldeans"

A commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, rev, trans, [London: James Clarke, 1953], 392

Troy Martin agrees with Luther
“In 4.8 Paul mentions the former pagan life of the Galatian Christians. In 4.9, he asks them how they can desire their former life again. He then proposes their observance of the time-keeping scheme in 4.10 as a demonstrative proof of their reversion to their old life…Considering only the immediate context of Gal 4.10 the list must be understood as a pagan temporal scheme”

“Pagan and Judeo-Christian Time-keeping Schemes in Gal 4:10 and Col 2:16” NTS 42 (1996):105-119 ( p 113) Troy Martin


R. A. Cole “it is not necessary…to see any Jewish influence in these Galatians; in all forms of paganism there is some form of ‘casting horoscopes’, with consequent ‘lucky’ and ‘unlucky’ days”

(The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians: An Introduction and Commentary,, R. A. Cole. TNTC [London: Tyndale, 1969], 119)

S. Mitchell writes “the major obstacle which stood in the way of the progress of Christianity, and the force which would have drawn new adherents back to conformity with the prevailing paganism, was the public worship of he Emperor. The packed calendar of the ruler cult dragooned the citizens…into observing days, months, seasons and years[/b] which it laid down for special recognition and celebration”[/i]

S. Mitchell, Anatolia; Land, Men and Gods in Asia Minor, Volume 2 The rise of the Church (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993), P. 10.

Even authors that “insist” on using Gal 4 as a method to attack Christ the Creator’s memorial of His creative act – and given as His holy day in Gen 2:3 (a blessing for all mankind Mark 2:27) – admit that their blind use of 4:10 as a reference to God’s Ordinances in His Word – is merely a preference not a fact dictated by the text.

:”They (the days, months, seasons and years) could equally well of course refer to the quasi-magical observances that we know to have been rife in Ephesus and presumably in other parts of Asia Minor too (Acts 19:19) Heterodox Jews as well as pagans certainly practices these arts as we see from Acts 19:”

The Rev. Cannon R. A. Cole, M.Th, Ph.D. The Letter of Paul to the Galatians (Inter-Varsity Press, 1965, 1989) P. 165)

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 4
8 however at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no Gods.
9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?[/I]
10 you observe days and months and seasons and years.


NOTE: . This pagan practice is also condemned in the OT

Lev 19: 26 You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor observe times (KJV).

Clearly Paul refers to going back to practices of the pagan system - returning to be enslaved by the pagan superstitious practices - again.

1. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) calls obedience to God’s Word – “Slavery”. Yet some Christians today prefer to think of it that way.
2. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) refers to God’s Word as “The weak and elemental things of this World” – yet some Christians do.
3. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) says that the Word of God is “worthless” and “pertaining to that “which by nature is not God”.


Notice the contrast between the condemnation of paganism – a RETURN to paganism in Gal 4 – vs the complete ACCEPTANCE of those who choose to observe the annual Sabbaths in Romans 14?? Romans 14 no reference to observing months, seasons, years etc.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He ho observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

 

[DHK]

What is grace?
How does being under grace make it so sin no longer has dominion over us?
What was the connection of sin having dominion over us and being under the law?

Simply put, Grace is God's free unmerited favor.
Someone put it this way:

God's
Riches
At
Christ's
E]xpense

That is grace.

Here is Scripture:
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is the grace of God that saves, that is, the grace that Jesus voluntarily gave of himself to suffer and die for our sins on the cross, paid the full payment for our sins, that we by faith alone may accept that gift and have eternal life and forgiveness of sins. He didn't have to die. It was of grace that He did. He freely died. That was grace.

The law negates grace. The law puts one under a system of works. The Jewish religion (as is the Catholics and SDA) must work for their salvation. Grace says, the gift of God is eternal life, and therefore can never be lost. Works says you must keep working because if you mess up you will lose that which Christ has promised you, and eternal is no more eternal--a totally unbiblical concept, demonstrated by this Scripture:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

One must choose. It is either grace or works. It cannot be both. Works negates grace. If salvation is by grace then it cannot be by works. If there is the least little bit of works involved in salvation then salvation is no more by grace. Salvation is either by grace or works. It cannot be both. one must choose one or the other.

The Bible declares that salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works (Eph.2:8,9).
I prefer to believe the Bible, not man's philosophy of works which will only send them on their way to Hell, being contrary to the Scriptures.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[DHK]

double post

 

[trustitl]

Not under law but uner grace

DHK, My fellow American :thumbs: ,

"The law negates grace. The law puts one under a system of works." Well said.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK, My fellow American :thumbs: ,

"The law negates grace.

Not to insist on scripture if scripture is not desired but...Text please.

 

[trustitl]

Not under law but under grace

If Paul is addressing pagan practices why does his allegory not address this? It is because he is referring to the law of Moses.

Who is he talking to?
4:21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

What is he talking about?
4:24 "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants"

What could this mean beyond the Jewish Law?
4:24 "the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage"

Who is this in the allegory?
4:25 " For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia"

And what are we to learn from this?
4:30 "Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

Then the "FUN" continues in chapter 5
5:1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

And to "prove" I mean demonstrate that he is not talking about pagan practices he talks about CIRCUMCISION: THE Jewish trademark.
5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
And the result:
"Christ shall profit you nothing."