Not under law but under grace.

[DHK]

Not to insist on scripture if scripture is not desired but...Text please.

The law is simply a system of works. Lay hold of that truth please. And then memorize and meditate on this verse:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The law is simply a system of works. Lay hold of that truth please. And then memorize and meditate on this verse: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

HP: In what sense is the law a system of works? Did God institute a system of works when He said the following? “Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

What is your take on this verse? Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

 

[DHK]

HP: In what sense is the law a system of works? Did God institute a system of works when He said the following? “Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

Think of the Ten Commandments. It is a list of rules; of do's and don'ts. The law leads to condemnation. No man can keep it. The purpose of the law was to show us that we are sinners, and thus to point us to a Savior. Those that were under the law, as you can see from the OT, had many rules to keep: all the way from various sacrifices to offer, to specific clothes to wear, foods to avoid, even the places where they could or could not live was dictated to them, accordint to their tribe. All was legalistic. And Israel failed under the law. They could not keep it. It was impossible.

Christ came to redeem us from the law.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--Those that put themselves under the law are cursed for they cannot keep the law. The law doesn't save. It is a system of works that cannot save.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
--The law is not of faith. Why? It is of works. It is a system of works. It denies faith. The man that does them (keeping the law and doing works) shall live them, and consequently shall be cursed.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ has redeemed us from the curs of the law.
What a wonderful truth. Redemption is through Christ. There is no redemption in the law. The law shows us that we are sinners. It points us to Christ who alone can save us. It removes the curse of the law that is upon us.

What is your take on this verse? Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119, the longest psalm in the Bible, is all about the Word of God. Every verse but two, speaks about the Word of God. There are many descriptions given to the Word of God, one of which is "the law." But here, in this very poetical psalm, the word "law" refers to the entire OT, not just the Ten Commandments, or the Levitical Law. Here is another translation (Darby's) of the same verse:

Psalms 19:7 The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple;

It is not necessarily that it converts or saves us, but restores the soul, feeds it. Generally speaking the psalm is written with the saved in mind. Here it is speaking more of the Word of God, rather than God's law as in the Ten Commandments and the Levitical Law.

 

[BobRyan]

If Paul is addressing pagan practices why does his allegory not address this? It is because he is referring to the law of Moses.

"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration from GOD" you are speaking of the "WORD OF GOD" and insisting that we bend Paul's words around so that they speak of God's Word as "weak and beggerly" referencing the pagan notions of those things which "are no gods at all". You bend the text speaking of those pagans who do not know God at all and seek to make it apply to anyone who reads and accepts scripture!!

Surely this has to be a clue for you that you are on the wrong track!

Paul never does that!

Though the Galatian church may ALSO have had problems with the Acts 15 example of Judaizers (as you point out LATER in Gal 4) -- there is no way to turn a blind eye to the "return to paganism" he describes in the first part of Gal 4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The focus on paganism is clearly seen as highlighted in blue -- Galatia was predominantly greek pagan culture with recently converted PAGAN Gentiles joining the Christian Church.

Those who seek to bend this around to mean "anyone who follows the Word of God as given in scripture" are directly apposing the teaching of Paul both here AND in Romans 14 where Paul DEFENDS even the expired practice of observing annual holy days that ended at the cross!

Gal 4
7 therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

This ends the section applicable to all mankind “in general” apart from anything specific at Galatia.

But then Paul starts to focus “specifically” on the condition of the pagans-turned-Christian IN the church of Galatia. Comparing their condition before salvation with their condition afterwards and the errors they were starting to lapse BACK into.

Lets take a look at Gal 4 again where it specifically focuses on the error of the gentiles in Galatia worshipping pagan idols.

Gentiles who "did not even KNOW the ONE true creator God".

Gentiles who worshipped "THINGS" that were "BY NATURE" not gods at all.

Gentiles who are "turning back AGAIN" to the "Weak and elemental things of the WORLD"

Gentiles who USED to observe "days and months and seasons and years." in their old system of emperor worship and are now introducing something like it mixed with Christianity.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods[b/].
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

The reference here for this GENTILE church composed of former pagans who USED to worship those things that “by nature were NO gods at all” and in fact as pagans they did not even KNOW of the TRUE God of scripture – is that they should not return to paganism.

This mix of scripture and paganism is often confronted by Paul –

“The commandments of men” Col 2:22. Titus 1:14 shows the source of this to be the Jewish “myths” being promoted primarily from “outside” the Christian church. (Which shows the tight link between Christians and Jews in the first century – with both attending the same worship services Acts 15: 21)

Titus 1
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men[/b] who turn away from the truth.


The term “elementary principles of the world” is a reference to the base superstition of paganism


Gal 4
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain


Obviously the problem with these Galatians pre-conversion is not about Gentiles in Galatia being obedient to the Law of God prior to being a Christian!
Obviously the problem IS about …

Gal 4
8 however at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no Gods.



Clearly Paul addresses the gentile churches in Galatia and mentions that in their lost state - before becoming Christian they were worshipping false gods. The Hebrew nation-church by contrast was established by the one true God of creation who was to send his only son as messiah-Christ-savior was known by the Hebrews and Paul agrees to this in Romans 3:1-3 as well as his reference to Timothy's up-bringing.


Gal 4

9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

 

[trustitl]

The weak and beggarly elements are not the word of God. They are the things that the law dealt with such as food, clothes, menstrual cycles, bodily dicharges, dead bodies, foreskins, animals, .........................................

I figured you wouldn't but I thought I would point out that you never answered the question about the reference to Sinai, which is clearly the Law.

 

[BobRyan]

The weak and beggarly elements are not the word of God. They are the things that the law dealt with such as food, clothes, menstrual cycles, bodily dicharges, dead bodies, foreskins, animals,

This wishful thinking on your point fails the test of both context and scripture content.

1. The gentiles were not "former Jews" they were former PAGANS.

2. When Paul speaks of GOING BACK again to the same things that "were no gods at all" He is NOT talking about Gentiles going "Back to their Jewish roots" but going back to PAGANISM to that which is NOT GOD AT ALL.

3. To argue that the God of the OT is "not God at all" or that Scripture is in fact "weak and beggerly so please ignore the OT scripture" is to bend the Bible so far out of context as to equate scripture with the old PAGANISM of the gentiles!!

4. Paul DEFENDS the practice of the OT annual holy days in Romans 14 condemning all Christians that would dare to judge any Christian for continuing to observe those days -- yet you here would bend Paul's words BACK on those practices calling them "weak and beggerly" and the worship defined in the OT text as being "worship of that which is not god at all" -- you have made it paganism and then to go to Romans 14 is to have Paul defend that paganism using your model!!

I figured you wouldn't but I thought I would point out that you never answered the question about the reference to Sinai, which is clearly the Law.

I already addressed it - you were not paying attention to the post where I point out that there is MORE than ONE problem being addressed in Paul's letters - and this is also the case with the letter to the Galatians. Paying attention to the inconvenient details in the discussion is where the argument becomes "compelling" as in the case of the details I just pointed out in the previous post with Gal 4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

Not under law but under grace

Gal. 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

He didn't say, "tell me, you that desire to go back under old pagan practices."

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

 

[BobRyan]

#1. You started out by quoting Gal 4: vs 9 here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1143183&postcount=50
Thus opening up a hole wide enough for me to drive a truck through --

#2 I gave you the "inconvenient details" of ALL of Vs 7-11. - this is "the part" where Paul addresses a return to paganism.
#2. I stated that in Paul's letters he addresses MORE than ONE issue to each church.

Your response??

To quote vs 21 INSTEAD of vs 9 and point out that vs 21 is not talking about the same thing as vs 7-11.

Sir - your reasoning here is "innexplicable" outside of a blind "redefine the OT as paganism at ALL costs" kind of solution!!

When are you going to deal with the inconvenient details of scripture already pointed out here?

However even GIVEN your blinders-on- all-for OT-as-paganism solution here - I have given you some help with vs 21 by pointing out two facts of scripture for you -

#1. You can not bend Gal 4 BACK on Romans 14 so that Paul is judging and condemning in Gal 4 the very thing Paul is DEFENDING in Romans 14!

#2. In Paul's letters - he addresses MORE than one problem!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The weak and beggarly elements are not the word of God. They are the things that the law dealt with such as food, clothes, menstrual cycles, bodily dicharges, dead bodies, foreskins, animals,

Here you select SCRIPTURE and say that the pagan notion of worship to that which IS NOT GOD AT ALL is contained in submitting to the Word of scripture...

Calling it weak and beggerly and condemning those who would honor scripture in that way.

By CONTRAST Paul states specifically

Romans 14

Principles of Conscience

1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He ho observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

In your desperation to AVOID the clear references to gentiles RETURNING to their pagan roots in Gal 4:7-11 you have turned Gal 4 BACK against Romans 14!!

Surely this should have been a "clue" for you by now that this is poor exegesis.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: In what sense is the law a system of works? Did God institute a system of works when He said the following? “Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

DHK: Think of the Ten Commandments. It is a list of rules; of do's and don'ts. The law leads to condemnation. No man can keep it. The purpose of the law was to show us that we are sinners, and thus to point us to a Savior. Those that were under the law, as you can see from the OT, had many rules to keep: all the way from various sacrifices to offer, to specific clothes to wear, foods to avoid, even the places where they could or could not live was dictated to them, according to their tribe. All was legalistic. And Israel failed under the law. They could not keep it. It was impossible.

HP: First, I would apologize for the delay in answering this post. We are still digging and trimming our way out of a severe ice storm. Now to the substance.

We are by design moral beings. Morality cannot exist without choices, either to obey the right or selfishly disobey. Do’s and don’t are necessary concepts, without which morality would be a chimera. You say the law leads to condemnation. That may or may not be the case. When one is living in agreement to the law, the law serves as an assurance that their conduct is acceptable to God. When we are told to examine ourselves, do we not in one sense or another, perform that examination in light of God’s established moral law, the ten commandments being a guiding light granted to us by the Supreme Lawgiver Himself for all to follow?

In your response, you once again confuse the moral unchangeable moral law with sacrifices, specific clothes, food, or places to avoid that might have been temporary and set aside under the NT. Just the same, to call moral law as legalistic, as you seemingly do, is to harbor a wrong concept of the purpose and scope of not only the moral law but morality in general.

Where you say that they ‘could not keep it’ for it was ‘impossible’ to keep, you are not only refuting the clear testimony of Scripture but are casting a blight upon the character of God. You paint a picture of a taskmaster demanding, upon pain of eternal torment, commandments out of man that God knows full well it is ‘impossible’ (in your words) to keep. Nothing could be further from the truth or more inconsistent with the testimony of Scripture. Listen carefully to the words of the man entrusted with giving the law to man. De 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

DHK: Christ came to redeem us from the law.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

HP: No man or sentient moral being is redeemed from any obligation to keep God’s moral law. One only has to read the sermon on the Mount to establish that fact. Certainly Christ came to redeem us from ‘the curse of the law’ as sinners, but that in no wise translates into being redeemed from the necessity placed upon all moral beings to live according to God’s moral law. To imply, as you do with your comments, that our obligation to keep God moral law is somehow abolished by Christ, is again not only untrue but unscriptural at best.
“If ye love me, keep my commandmants.” “1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

DHK: Those that put themselves under the law are cursed for they cannot keep the law. The law doesn't save. It is a system of works that cannot save.

HP: Once a person has sinned, no amount of obedience to any law can save, that is true. No one is suggesting that such is the case. Neither is obedience to the moral law of God as a believer a ‘system of works.’ Our works are not the grounds of our salvation, and are always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which, ‘not ‘that for the sake of.’ As believers we voluntarily accept God’s moral law as good and true and obligate ourselves to obedience to it, without which no one shall see God. God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man reaps that will he sow. “Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” “Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” “Keep My commandments.”

DHK: Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
--The law is not of faith. Why? It is of works. It is a system of works. It denies faith. The man that does them (keeping the law and doing works) shall live them, and consequently shall be cursed.

HP: Obedience to the law in no way denies faith. Yea, it proves your faith. Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”

DHK: Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

HP: Indeed He did redeem us from the ‘curse’ of the law, but that in no wise is saying that we are no longer, as believers, obligated to live in obedience to God’s moral law. He did not come to destroy the law, but to establish and fulfill it. Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn

Paul said of the Jews when not yet believers, the Law brought us to Christ. But since Christ has revealed Himself, it is He who draws to Himself. Love is love's reward;

Interesting paraphrase of scripture

But to really make the point stick - I am going to need actual scripture. Since you seem to want to draw something from Gal 3 in the quote above -- go ahead and quote it -- show that your point can be made using the actual words of the text.

GE

No Bob, I didn't try to make a quote. I simply made a statement, I believe is absolutely true. It is Christ that brings us to Himself; not the Law. If it were the law, then the Jews will enter into Christ's Kingdom before the Christians.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
Christ came to redeem us from the law.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

GE
"For as many as are of THE WORKS of ....". No one is or can be, 'of the Law'; but no one is there who his whole life, is not under the Law. DHK, You are under the Law, whether you like it or not. I like the truth I am under the Law for as long as I shall live; for Jesus Christ saved me from that position until He comes or I die.
Instead of hating your own works of the law - as for me too - we love to hate God's law instead. it's a nice feeling I know - for this Me old sinner's-nature!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Christ came to redeem us - me - from myself! He came to and did redeem me of all sin - of all my actions and inclinations against His Law, that is. He planted in me this strange - yes, new- love for His Law - a love too much for the Old Letter-Law - a love that is answered only by The Law : "Of God" - that is, 'The Law' that IS, God Himself, ultimately and at very basic simplistics, that IS, Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:
Indeed He did redeem us from the ‘curse’ of the law, but that in no wise is saying that we are no longer, as believers, obligated to live in obedience to God’s moral law. He did not come to destroy the law, but to establish and fulfill it. Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

GE
Forget the metaphysical 'moral law'. It's senseless to the believer, and remains senseless, even where or when equated with the Ten Commandments. 'Natural Theology' belongs to the past (nineteenth-20thC). It was a miserable failure which hasn't improved one bit. Bring us Christ Jesus for The Law; only He will do.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: Forget the metaphysical 'moral law'. It's senseless to the believer, and remains senseless, even where or when equated with the Ten Commandments. 'Natural Theology' belongs to the past (nineteenth-20thC). It was a miserable failure which hasn't improved one bit. Bring us Christ Jesus for The Law; only He will do.

HP: Do you suppose one could bring one to Jesus by introducing or drawing their attention to the Sermon on the Mount? Would this passage serve to incite the mind as to the principles taught by Jesus as being applicable to today, enlightening the mind as to how we should act and respond, or would you consider the moral principles taught by Jesus to be metaphysical and somehow related to the ‘natural theology’ you refer to and as such being outdated having failed miserably?

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 5 when Christ speaks a curse to those who would teach others to ignore the Law of God - how does exegesis tell us the LISTENERS to Christ's words (his primary audience and primary intent) would have understood "LAW" to be defined?

 

[trustitl]

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You cannot convict a dead man of breaking a law and you can't ask him to keep it either.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In Matt 5 when Christ speaks a curse to those who would teach others to ignore the Law of God - how does exegesis tell us the LISTENERS to Christ's words (his primary audience and primary intent) would have understood "LAW" to be defined?

HP: Excellent question. I can see it as being nothing other than the immutable moral law of God as given to Moses in the Decalogue. Do you suppose there was some significance of writing the ten commandments in stone instead of merely verbally to be transcribed to paper as all other inspirations of God?

Jesus said, Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. Again, as BR asks, what would the listener have understood ‘the commandments’ to consist of that He was referring to?
What commandments was Jesus referring to when he said the following? Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Can anyone be said to love God and be a breaker of His commandments according to Scripture?

DHK has stated that no one can keep the commandments of God. Where is his Scriptural evidence for that assertion? According to Jesus, is it impossible to keep the commandments? Can one, according to the following passage, abide in His love and fail to keep the commadments? Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: You cannot convict a dead man of breaking a law and you can't ask him to keep it either.

HP: If a man is found to be breaking the law that is evidence he is not dead but alive and under it. If Jesus commanded us to keep the law, far be it from us to say one cannot ask another to keep it.

If we are dead to the law, we are living in obedience to the law. The law has nothing to say to those that are obedient. If you are going through a speed trap at the speed limit, you are dead to any violation of the law. If you go through the speed trap doing 20 over you will find out quickly how alive you are to the law and its penalties.

When Scripture tells us to reckon ourselves dead unto sin, it is telling us to walk holy and pure so as to be free from the condemnation of the law. Any man that is in violation of God’s law, and does not fulfill the conditions of forgiveness, will suffer the penalty of the law. Scripture tells us that if we have received light and done despite the Spirit of grace, we shall receive a greater punishment than those that have not experienced the grace we have. Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?