Now I Understand! Do You?

[OldRegular]

On January 31 I started a thread entitled: Pre-Trib-Dispensationalism and the Bible in which I posed the questions:

What is the Scriptural Basis for:

1.The Rapture of the Church prior to a Great Seven Year Tribulation?

2. The doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "Parenthesis" or Intercalation in God's Program for Israel!

That thread was closed after only 15 posts, without cause, whereas the thread Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon on the Calvinism/Arminianism was allowed to run for 400 posts.

********************************************************

After much thought I decided to restart the thread as Why Is It Wrong? with the same questions:

What is the Scriptural Basis for:

1.The Rapture of the Church prior to a Great Seven Year Tribulation?

2. The doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "Parenthesis" or Intercalation in God's Program for Israel!

This thread was closed after a total of 19 posts. The only person expressing any acrimony on that thread is evident.

*****************************************************************

I still think the questions are worth discussing so perhaps 3rd time will be charm if this thread is allowed to progress and not be summarily closed. Who knows it might make 3 pages!

What is the Scriptural Basis for:

1.The Rapture of the Church prior to a Great Seven Year Tribulation?

2. The doctrine that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "Parenthesis" or Intercalation in God's Program for Israel?

 

[convicted1]

On January 31 I started a thread entitled: Pre-Trib-Dispensationalism and the Bible in which I posed the questions:



That thread was closed after only 15 posts, without cause, whereas the thread Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon on the Calvinism/Arminianism was allowed to run for 400 posts.

********************************************************

After much thought I decided to restart the thread as Why Is It Wrong? with the same questions:



*****************************************************************

This thread was closed after a total of 19 posts. The only person expressing any acrimony on that thread is evident.

I still think the questions are worth discussing so perhaps 3rd time will be charm if this thread is allowed to progress and not be summarily closed. Who knows it might make 3 pages!

DHK has authority here to close threads. In the Cal vs Arm, not-so-much...

 

[OldRegular]

DHK has authority here to close threads. In the Cal vs Arm, not-so-much...

I understand that and he abuses his power! Frankly he would do me a favor by closing this one!

 

[convicted1]

Christ died for, laid 3 days and nights in the ground for, was raised and ascended to the Father for, and will come again for the church, His bride...

 

[Revmitchell]

You guys have no shame.

 

[OldRegular]

You guys have no shame.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what C1 said. How is is different than what pre-tribbers believe?

Christ died for, laid 3 days and nights in the ground for, was raised and ascended to the Father for, and will come again for the church, His bride...

You make no contribution, period! All you do is slander! And you stick Rev in front of your name!

 

[convicted1]

You guys have no shame.

What did I say that was so erroneous?


Though I'm amil, I tend to stay outta these eschatology debates. I mean I don't participate in them like other topics...

 

[OldRegular]

What did I say that was so erroneous?


Though I'm amil, I tend to stay outta these eschatology debates. I mean I don't participate in them like other topics...

You said nothing that would cause any Christian to take offense. Your comment was correct regardless of ones eschatological views. I pointed that out to good ole Mitch but I am not sure it got through his bias.

 

[JamesL]

RL Bosley has a thread - Convince me of Amillennialism - which is at 25 posts and still open

He's made it known that he is currently (tentatively) Historic Premillennial

In one post, Willis answered - "Open your bible and read"
to which Bosley answered with a meme "You don't say"

I think the intent of Bosley's thread is - Defend your position from scripture, give your best shot at convincing me


In all fairness, Old Regular has merely offered the same to the PreMil Dispensationalist - Defend your position from scripture, give your best shot at convincing me.


I'll say truthfully that I was once PreMil Dispensational, and am now pretty firmly planted in Historic PreMillennialism. I'm not interested in becoming Amillennial, and have no side to choose here. And I don't believe OR is looking to become convinced, either.

But I am in agreement with OR that the PreMil PreTrib rapture position is not defensible from scripture. But who knows, right? Let's have a purely scriptural defense of the PreTrib rapture

Anyone?

 

[OldRegular]

RL Bosley has a thread - Convince me of Amillennialism - which is at 25 posts and still open

He's made it known that he is currently (tentatively) Historic Premillennial

In one post, Willis answered - "Open your bible and read"
to which Bosley answered with a meme "You don't say"

I think the intent of Bosley's thread is - Defend your position from scripture, give your best shot at convincing me


In all fairness, Old Regular has merely offered the same to the PreMil Dispensationalist - Defend your position from scripture, give your best shot at convincing me.


I'll say truthfully that I was once PreMil Dispensational, and am now pretty firmly planted in Historic PreMillennialism. I'm not interested in becoming Amillennial, and have no side to choose here. And I don't believe OR is looking to become convinced, either.

But I am in agreement with OR that the PreMil PreTrib rapture position is not defensible from scripture. But who knows, right? Let's have a purely scriptural defense of the PreTrib rapture

Anyone?

Frankly, I have no real problem with the historic premillennial position though I think John 5:28, 29 makes a strong case against it. Historic premillennialism has the correct view of the church and to me that is the important doctrine. I believe progressive dispensationalism is moving in that direction.

Though I disagree with the eschatology of pre-trib-dispensationalism and will debate them on it their view of the church as an interruption in God's program for Israel is what really gets to me. I am surrounded by rapture ready dispensationalists and a great many of them think Israel is still top dog in the eyes of God and we in the Church are somewhere below.

 

[JamesL]

Frankly, I have no real problem with the historic premillennial position though I think John 5:28, 29 makes a strong case against it.

I've considered John 5, and standing alone it does seem to indicate a single resurrection.

However, I also consider 1Cor 15:20-28.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all


Couple of points...

Verses 23-24 say those who are Christ's at His coming, then the *end* which can also be rendered "then the rest"

Christ will reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet, then He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father.

 

[OldRegular]

I've considered John 5, and standing alone it does seem to indicate a single resurrection.

However, I also consider 1Cor 15:20-28.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all


Couple of points...

Verses 23-24 say those who are Christ's at His coming, then the *end* which can also be rendered "then the rest"

Christ will reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet, then He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father.

! Corinthians 15:24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

cometh the end: 5056. telov telos tel'-os; from a primary tellw tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid):-- + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare 5411.

I don't see "rest"! But then I am not a Greek scholar! But I did chech half dozen translations, all have " the end"

ASV 24. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

GLT 24. Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

NASB 24. then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

NIV 24. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

NKJV 24. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

 

[HankD]

Frankly, I have no real problem with the historic premillennial position though I think John 5:28, 29 makes a strong case against it. Historic premillennialism has the correct view of the church and to me that is the important doctrine. I believe progressive dispensationalism is moving in that direction.

Though I disagree with the eschatology of pre-trib-dispensationalism and will debate them on it their view of the church as an interruption in God's program for Israel is what really gets to me. I am surrounded by rapture ready dispensationalists and a great many of them think Israel is still top dog in the eyes of God and we in the Church are somewhere below.

Jesus often spoke metaphorically. e.g. destroy this temple and I will build it up in 3 days.

There will indeed be a resurrection of the body, but consider John 5:24 along with 25. Who are "the dead" - those dead (walking around) to whom the gospel is preached and then received. They need not wait until the resurrection of the body.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This "resurrection" has been going on now for nearly 2000 years, every time the gospel is preached and believed.

HankD

 

[asterisktom]

I've considered John 5, and standing alone it does seem to indicate a single resurrection.

However, I also consider 1Cor 15:20-28.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all


Couple of points...

Verses 23-24 say those who are Christ's at His coming, then the *end* which can also be rendered "then the rest"

Christ will reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet, then He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father.

I really wish I was at my keyboard so I can comment in depth here. I am in the Philippines with only my Nook. But one comment for now: Who were the enemies Paul is referring to? Check his other "enemy" verses.

 

[percho]

Comments please.

ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι KJV: But each man in his own order.

With Christ being the first, man?

All, from the previous verse is also an interesting word.

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus often spoke metaphorically. e.g. destroy this temple and I will build it up in 3 days.

There will indeed be a resurrection of the body, but consider John 5:24 along with 25. Who are "the dead" - those dead (walking around) to whom the gospel is preached and then received. They need not wait until the resurrection of the body.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This "resurrection" has been going on now for nearly 2000 years, every time the gospel is preached and believed.

HankD

I agree!. And If my memory is correct I believe Hoekema in his book The Bible and the Future used that truth to refute to Ladd's exegesis of Revelation 20:4-6 and the meaning of resurrection!

 

[percho]

Jesus often spoke metaphorically. e.g. destroy this temple and I will build it up in 3 days.

There will indeed be a resurrection of the body, but consider John 5:24 along with 25. Who are "the dead" - those dead (walking around) to whom the gospel is preached and then received. They need not wait until the resurrection of the body.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This "resurrection" has been going on now for nearly 2000 years, every time the gospel is preached and believed.

HankD

I agree!. And If my memory is correct I believe Hoekema in his book The Bible and the Future used that truth to refute to Ladd's exegesis of Revelation 20:4-6 and the meaning of resurrection!

Would I be correct to assume that the resurrection spoken of is something that is inherited?

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. Hebrews 1:1,2 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17

Exactly when do you believe Jesus the Christ inherited the above resurrection?

 

[HankD]

I agree!. And If my memory is correct I believe Hoekema in his book The Bible and the Future used that truth to refute to Ladd's exegesis of Revelation 20:4-6 and the meaning of resurrection!

OK, but that only proves that the concept of the resurrection of the body is debatable on a human level.

The ongoing orthodox view has always acknowledged that there will be a bodily resurrection of humanity as well as a spiritual.

Jesus left in His resurrected material body, the scripture declares that this same Jesus will return in like manner.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



HankD

 

[Greektim]

OK, but that only proves that the concept of the resurrection of the body is debatable on a human level.

The ongoing orthodox view has always acknowledged that there will be a bodily resurrection as well as a spiritual.


HankD

Before you declare what is ongoing orthodoxy, can you tell us what you mean by a spiritual resurrection? I'm not denying it, but I would only say that this is part and parcel to regeneration. Thus the New Covenant has been enacted and believers have entered an initial eschatological stage of resurrection, the "already" if you will. We have already been resurrected or given life spiritually. We we await the day of consummation where resurrection will be complete and our bodies will be resurrected. Are we in some agreement here?

 

[percho]

Before you declare what is ongoing orthodoxy, can you tell us what you mean by a spiritual resurrection? I'm not denying it, but I would only say that this is part and parcel to regeneration. Thus the New Covenant has been enacted and believers have entered an initial eschatological stage of resurrection, the "already" if you will. We have already been resurrected or given life spiritually. We we await the day of consummation where resurrection will be complete and our bodies will be resurrected. Are we in some agreement here?

Is that like saying eternal life which I believe to be inherited, biblically speaking, is inherited in two manners, first spiritually and then bodily?

Did Jesus born of Mary experience both of these resurrections in inheriting what he is the heir thereof.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:1,2

Is God who appointed Son as heir in those verses to be understood as the Father of the Son or in some other manner? Is eternal life inclusive in the all things of which the above Son is heir of?

What about glory? Did Jesus the Son inherit glory? If Yes, when did he inherit glory?

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:17 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

We who have had the Holy Spirit abundantly poured upon us, have we inherited eternal life or we still just, heirs of the hope of eternal life?

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7

Have we been spiritually resurrected?

Who has inherited and who are still, just heirs?