Nuts For Arminians To Crack

[Saved-By-Grace]

YEP, not sealed with the Spirit till AFTER you believe.

no, you have not read what I have said. In the Greek, "πιστεύσαντες", it is "on your believing", and not "after"

"“On believing”:—better than “after believing,” because the Gr. does not emphasize sequence. It rather combines into one idea the facts of the faith and the seal. In experience, the latter might markedly follow the former; but not necessarily in the Divine ideal" (The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"on your believing (terminus a quo, as ἀκούσαντες above. Not to be taken with ἐν ᾧ (as = εἰς ὅν, an usage unknown to St. Paul), for see Act_19:2, εἰ πνεῦμα ἅγ. ἐλάβετε πιστεύσαντες;—‘did ye receive the Holy Ghost when ye believed?’" (Henry Alford, Greek Testament)

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" (NIV)

"And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago" (NLT)

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (ESV)

"And in Him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Berean)

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (NASB)

"In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed" (CSB)

"When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." (HCSB)

"You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," (ISV)

"And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)--when you believed in Christ--you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit" (NET Bible)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (ASV)

"in whom ye also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Darby)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (ERV)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise" (YLT)

"In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," (RSV)

"in him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit" (NRSV)

"And in Him you Gentiles also, after listening to the Message of the truth, the Good News of your salvation--having believed in Him--were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (Weymouth)

 

[glad4mercy]

no, you have not read what I have said. In the Greek, "πιστεύσαντες", it is "on your believing", and not "after"

"“On believing”:—better than “after believing,” because the Gr. does not emphasize sequence. It rather combines into one idea the facts of the faith and the seal. In experience, the latter might markedly follow the former; but not necessarily in the Divine ideal" (The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"on your believing (terminus a quo, as ἀκούσαντες above. Not to be taken with ἐν ᾧ (as = εἰς ὅν, an usage unknown to St. Paul), for see Act_19:2, εἰ πνεῦμα ἅγ. ἐλάβετε πιστεύσαντες;—‘did ye receive the Holy Ghost when ye believed?’" (Henry Alford, Greek Testament)

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" (NIV)

"And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago" (NLT)

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (ESV)

"And in Him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Berean)

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (NASB)

"In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed" (CSB)

"When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." (HCSB)

"You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," (ISV)

"And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)--when you believed in Christ--you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit" (NET Bible)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (ASV)

"in whom ye also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Darby)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (ERV)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise" (YLT)

"In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," (RSV)

"in him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit" (NRSV)

"And in Him you Gentiles also, after listening to the Message of the truth, the Good News of your salvation--having believed in Him--were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (Weymouth)

Yes, upon believing we are sealed with the Spirit. I misspoke when I said after. We are immediately sealed by the Spirit. My point was that we are not sealed in this manner BEFORE believing. I should have said NOT SEALED UNTIL BELIEVE. Just as hearing LEADS to believing, believing results in sealing

Hear the Gospel

Drawn

Repent and Believe

Sealed by the Spirit

More of a logical than a chronological order

 

[Felipe Rios]

This is from a little booklet written by Elder J. B. Hardy 1837 -1913 and this particular one is on free agency... Comments?... Brother Glen

If we are saved by our free will, is it not a fact that the only difference between the saved and the lost is that the saved made a better use of their will?

The Calvinist and Non-Calvinist debate will continue until the end of time. At the end of the day, it's all about perspective. (those are my two cents)

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Yes, upon believing we are sealed with the Spirit. I misspoke when I said after. We are immediately sealed by the Spirit. My point was that we are not sealed in this manner BEFORE believing. I should have said NOT SEALED UNTIL BELIEVE. Just as hearing LEADS to believing, believing results in sealing

Hear the Gospel

Drawn

Repent and Believe

Sealed by the Spirit

More of a logical than a chronological order

what do you think of "drawn to hear the Gospel"?

 

[glad4mercy]

ryr

what do you think of "drawn to hear the Gospel"?

That's a good point. Often God does preparation on the heart even before a person hears the gospel.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not Arminian or Calvinist, but a simple Bible-believer. Here are some questions for you and your friends on BB

1. Does God love all sinners?
2. Does God desire the salvation of all sinners?
3. Is God willing that any sinner go into eternal damnation and perish?
4. Does God preordain any person to eternal punishment?
5. In the OT Israel were the "elect" of God, as a nation, yet there are non-elect people who were saved, like Rahab, and the people of Nineveh. Is this the same for post-cross times?
6. Why do the lost end up in hell?
7. Does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit is convicting all sinners of their sins?
8. The Bible uses terms like, "ransomed" (1 Timothy 2:6); "bought" (2 Peter 2:1) and "sin-offering/covering" (1 John 2:2), for the entire human race. In what way are these used for the "non-elect"?

God predestined both Judas and Pharoh to be the failed enemies against His plans, correct?
if God intended to death of jesus to save all sinners, all would be. Period.

 

[Yeshua1]

what do you think of "drawn to hear the Gospel"?

the Father draws to Jesus to get saved those sinners whom His death on Cross atoned for...

 

[Yeshua1]

Jude 4- The word translated "ordain" is actually a perfect passive participle of PROGRAPHO "I write before" . IN other words, "...who were of old WRITTEN ABOUT"

PRO is before and grapho is "I write".

1 Peter 2 :7- 8- Judicial hardening of unbelievers. Verses 9-10 God mercies believers.

God is not willing that any should perish, that all come to repentance, that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...but He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. In other words, I can in pride resist God's grace, then He will resist me, and my condemnation increases. Or I can humbly receive God's Grace, AND HE WILL GIVE ME MORE GRACE.

To them that has shall more be given, but to him who doesnt have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

I know Calvinists don't like the idea of "once grace is offered, we can receive or resist" but it's what the Bible teaches.

We're not talking about earning or working for salvation, but rather about merely receiving a FREE, UNDESERVED, UNMERITED, UNSOLICITED gift!!! God is found by them who did not seek Him. I am one of those, praise the LORD!

quote- God called you out of darkness into his marvelous light, you didn't decide to walk out on your own... Brother Glen

ABSOLUTELY AGREE that I did not decide on my own. We believe that salvation is by Grace and by God alone!

The scriptures show to us that the lost/unsaved do indeed keep on resisting God, but there are no scriptures that show the saved resist him and not get saved!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God predestined both Judas and Pharoh to be the failed enemies against His plans, correct?
if God intended to death of jesus to save all sinners, all would be. Period.

Incorrect. No, because you have destroyed FREE WILL!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

the Father draws to Jesus to get saved those sinners whom His death on Cross atoned for...

you would be more honest if you forgot your bias and stuck to what the Bible actually teaches!

 

[utilyan]

I suggest reading 1 John all in one shot. From 1 John 1 to its conclusion 1 John 5. Its not long. Even better listen to a audio book maybe on youtube


1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Through the whole epistle we are told of two groups those with God and those against God and how those against God make God a Liar.

To qualify as being against God and making God a Liar they must NOT BELIEVE a particular thing. The testimony that God has given concerning his Son.

"the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son"

What is the testimony?

11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


So what I am hearing here on this thread is they have not made God a liar at all. These are HONEST REPROBATES.

They don't believe Jesus Christ is their redeemer. Therefore Jesus truly is not, then they are telling the TRUTH and not a LIE.


But scripture says quite plainly, "the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar"

Those who REFUSE christ are LIARS, They believe in a lie. They DON'T believe Jesus died for them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Incorrect. No, because you have destroyed FREE WILL!

Only God has real free will, as all of us are slaves to sin before saved, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

you would be more honest if you forgot your bias and stuck to what the Bible actually teaches!

So jesus did not state that the father drew the Apostles unto Him, so not all were given to Him, just some?

 

[utilyan]

Only God has real free will, as all of us are slaves to sin before saved, correct?

No when you sin it is your fault. You had perfect choice and opportunity to do exactly the right thing to do and specificly chose to rebel and sin against God.

YOUR FAULT,


Sin nature = excuses
Total deprave = excuses
Robot will = excuses

Time to REPENT and actually take responsibility instead of passing the buck on something God didn't do for you.

 

[glad4mercy]

The scriptures show to us that the lost/unsaved do indeed keep on resisting God, but there are no scriptures that show the saved resist him and not get saved!

What do you mean? Tons of lost people got saved in the Bible!

Second point is correct, albeit redundant, though.

 

[glad4mercy]

So jesus did not state that the father drew the Apostles unto Him, so not all were given to Him, just some?

Those who believe are given to Jesus by the Father

 

[glad4mercy]

Only God has real free will, as all of us are slaves to sin before saved, correct?

What does Jonathon Edwards say about free will?

 

[glad4mercy]

No when you sin it is your fault. You had perfect choice and opportunity to do exactly the right thing to do and specificly chose to rebel and sin against God.

YOUR FAULT,


Sin nature = excuses
Total deprave = excuses
Robot will = excuses

Time to REPENT and actually take responsibility instead of passing the buck on something God didn't do for you.

Sin nature is not an excuse to sin, it is a recognition that we need the Grace of God FROM FIRST TO LAST. It is a recognition that without Christ we are without strength, without hope, without life. Salvation changes all that though

 

[glad4mercy]

Incorrect. No, because you have destroyed FREE WILL!

Christ tasted death for every man. But God intended it to save those who believe. God did not intend it to save all, because He foreknew not all would be saved. But that does not mean their unbelief and hardness of heart was His Will for them. The death of Christ saves those who believe AND leaves those who reject with greater guilt and judgement

 

[glad4mercy]

the Father draws to Jesus to get saved those sinners whom His death on Cross atoned for...

So they were reconciled to God before they came to Jesus? I think it is the death of Jesus atones the sinners who come to Jesus, who of course were first drawn by the Father.