Not sure what you are looking for, but the Lord had me build a pretty awesome ham sandwich the other day! Of course He had me build some crappy sandwiches also in the past, He must have been having a bad day or something.
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Objections to Calvinism
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
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Not sure what you are looking for, but the Lord had me build a pretty awesome ham sandwich the other day! Of course He had me build some crappy sandwiches also in the past, He must have been having a bad day or something.
Can you show from the Scripture that Adam lost his ability to choose right, or God, after the fall?
Sorry, Calvinist do not own the definition of sovereign grace. I believe in sovereign grace and I believe salvation is all of God. Of course I believe the way it is taught in the Scriptures and not the way TULIP teaches it.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Bound by our nature
We do not have to be bound by our nature, through the word of God we can say not my will but your will be done.
We can follow the will of God, without His word we are bound to our nature.
His word can set us on a new path away from our nature.
We need to know who we really are by our nature that we have to turn away from our nature to God through Jesus Christ the only way out.
No one has to be bound by their will, but to be shown the way out.
There is no one good not one of you not one of you so turn to the only one who is Jesus and put on Christ.
I believe in change and only Christ can change us.
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
Ezekiel 3:19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
We do not have to be bound by our nature, through the word of God we can say not my will but your will be done.
We can follow the will of God, without His word we are bound to our nature.
His word can set us on a new path away from our nature.
We need to know who we really are by our nature that we have to turn away from our nature to God through Jesus Christ the only way out.
No one has to be bound by their will, but to be shown the way out.
There is no one good not one of you not one of you so turn to the only one who is Jesus and put on Christ.
I believe in change and only Christ can change us.
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
Ezekiel 3:19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
That's like saying Jesus could have sinned. Jesus made it perfectly clear He was not here to condemn anyone, but to save by Himself being condemned.
Don't you mean Jesus made her believe? You are a Calvinist, correct? No wait, your right, the Scripture does command men to believe and repent. Boy, sure would have been a lot clearer if Jesus would have spoken more plainly and more accurately, like Calvinist!!!
You seem to remain confused on these things:wavey:
What has been explained clearly in other places does not need to be repeated in every chapter does it?
She was a sinner...caught and guilty.She needed to be born from above as in Jn 3.We are told only what we needed to know in this passage.
Again steaver...The Spirit works salvation as he will...like the wind..in the unseen realm...Was she "made to believe"...or made willing as in psalm 110?
keep trying Steaver...eventually you will see it....Lord willing:thumbs:
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I have been in services of every free will church denomination that can be named and have never heard them mention the word sovereign grace. Before I started reading Spurgeon sermons I too had never heard the word. The two churches I now attend go by sovereign grace, the word Calvinist is never mentioned.
God is sovereign, there is no other grace but sovereign grace. My CMA pastors have preached grace and have preached God's sovereignty in that grace. Calvinist opening line is almost always "God is Sovereign", well duh. Calvinist like to believe they coined these terms, like "Doctrines of Grace" as though these doctrines belong to TULIP. In reality they belong to the Scriptures and not anyone's personal theology. I believe in Sovereign Grace, I believe in the Doctrines of Grace, I don't believe in TULIP's version of these truths.
If I appear confused, you as a Calvinist have to blame the Holy Spirit, for I have studied and I have prayed, and the only thing I am getting from the Spirit is TULIP just doesn't add up. Unless of course you believe it is my own self will holding me back to not believe TULIP and my will is stronger than the Holy Spirit's will to teach me otherwise.
Calvinists and catholics have a lot in common. They both sure like to twist Scripture. "That's not what it really means.........all doesn't really mean all.......not willing any should perish really means just the elect....etc." Sure sounds like some of the RC arguments.
PreachTony
Active Member
Here's my understanding, Icon:
The Lord is the sole provider of salvation. It is His and His alone to grant to His children. Obviously, we believe differently, in that I believe God does not restrict certain people from salvation.
To say that the Spirit works salvation as He will...like the wind... makes a degree of sense, but it seems to negate Paul's writing which states that people should work out [their] own salvation with fear and trembling.
The notion that people can be saved with absolutely no input on their part seems to go against several instances of scripture. Between things I've read from you and other calvinists, and from PB's like pinoy, just simply don't match-up with the scripture I've read.
While it is clear that "whosever" means "whosoever" will may come, receiving God's gift of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is the only "input" so to speak a person has concerning "justification". And even this repentance to receive does not have any "working" part in justification, it is only the trigger by which God applies His salvation. Salvation is all of God. God's grace is sovereign, it is his work, we only receive His work in us.
Afterwards, once a person has been "born-again" (which is God during a miracle and creating a new spiritual being, making us one with His Spirit), only then can one "work out" what they have been freely given. The "working out of your salvation" is the "sanctification" part, as we work with the Holy Spirit in us to allow Him to conform us into the image of Jesus Christ, a life long process until our glorification in the resurrection.
Blessings! :wavey:
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
The door is open to all that will come in. God does not restrict, man restricts himself. Psa 14:2-3 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good no, not one. Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Phil 2:12 is a pet scripture that the works crowed quotes a lot, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, but they won't touch the proceeding verse, Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Also there is input in conversion, we are active, we believe, but in regeneration, we are passive, that is the Spirits work.
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Steaver, do you really believe God is sovereign, do you believe this verse ? Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand or say unto him, What doest thou ? How about this one, Isa 46: 9-10 Remember he former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. No, I don't think you believe these verses. I believe you think man can stay Gods hand in the work of salvation. To believe you can stay Gods hand in the work of salvation, is to question God; What doest thou ?
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PreachTony
let me ask you a question here. "provider of salvation"?
Do you mean He makes salvation possible...but does not save?
or He provides salvation because He ACTUALLY saves?
Who are his children?
Scripture speaks of the children given to the Son...by the Father. Is that the children you are speaking about.
it depends on how you answer these questions in large part.
How do you believe that some of us think God "restricts" certain people?
I do not believe he does. The gospel is to go to all men everywhere.
God has never intended to save all men.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
God is absolutely sovereign in salvation...and yet as he enables sinners through means that He has ordained...they; repent, believe, trust, receive Him and his word ,preached and taught....God works in them, they work it out.
The other Calvinists are giving you good answers.....
Do not mix us in with Pinoy, or ewf.....they are badly confused as many are showing on several threads now....The confusion is being unfolded post by post. To read them will confuse you...keep the two groups separate.
When you address them you should understand that they stand opposed to the historic church on these things..yet they think that they alone are the only ones who have truth. They are mistaken:thumbs:
let me ask you a question here. "provider of salvation"?
Do you mean He makes salvation possible...but does not save?
or He provides salvation because He ACTUALLY saves?
Who are his children?
Scripture speaks of the children given to the Son...by the Father. Is that the children you are speaking about.
it depends on how you answer these questions in large part.
How do you believe that some of us think God "restricts" certain people?
I do not believe he does. The gospel is to go to all men everywhere.
God has never intended to save all men.
it should because that is what Jesus taught;
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
paul is speaking of sanctification as SM already said.:thumbs:
God is absolutely sovereign in salvation...and yet as he enables sinners through means that He has ordained...they; repent, believe, trust, receive Him and his word ,preached and taught....God works in them, they work it out.
The other Calvinists are giving you good answers.....
Do not mix us in with Pinoy, or ewf.....they are badly confused as many are showing on several threads now....The confusion is being unfolded post by post. To read them will confuse you...keep the two groups separate.
When you address them you should understand that they stand opposed to the historic church on these things..yet they think that they alone are the only ones who have truth. They are mistaken:thumbs:
Baptist4life
and clearly it is you who trample over the truth.
sounds like you lack understanding:thumbsup:
and clearly it is you who trample over the truth.
using only half a verse is what satan did when he opposed truth. Why are you doing the same thing.....instead of Baptist for life, you will be mistaken 4 life unless you read the full verses.:laugh:
sounds like you lack understanding:thumbsup:
PreachTony
Active Member
I'll try to answer your question by avoiding the framework you present. You only give two options, both of which you can potentially turn as opposition. I'm not saying you would, but this was the point I made earlier about semantics. One side of the discussion cannot act as sole decider of the terminology. Your questions are framed similarly to asking a man if he beats his wife with a hammer or a baseball bat. It's a rhetorical game, whether you intended it or not (and I really want to think you did not, as I hope better from you Icon).
When I say the Lord is the sole provider of salvation I mean that the Lord alone provided the atonement necessary for us to be saved, and that He alone can present/offer salvation to a person.
Now, in my belief, the person is a free moral agent, completely capable of denying God and rejecting salvation. Conversely, the person can accept the terms of the gospel, believe on the Lord, and enter into life saved; born again. The preacher does not save anyone. Signing a card does not save. The Lord saves.
"Children of God" is, admittedly, a bit of a catch-all term. One can argue that the Children of God are those saved by God, or Israel, or the Elect, or some other group. Personally, I can only speak from experience. I believe myself to be a child of God because He saved me.
It's pretty clear to me from our discussions that we see things differently. That shouldn't necessarily hinder us from civil conversation and even from acting as friends.
As I've stated before, I see in scripture a theology that is contrary to the hardline Calvinistic theology. I believe I offer some backing up of my point in later answers in this post. Please read on. :smilewinkgrin:
That's certainly one interpretation. Here's a little background on me, Icon. I'm very much an eclectic when it comes to scriptural interpretation. I don't necessarily believe that each instance of scripture has only a single literal meaning, and no other meaning is useful. No, I see scripture as something the Lord can bless and reveal unto us to be applied to our everyday lives. I mentioned in Sunday School yesterday that after reading certain chapters of Ecclesiastes, I began to wonder if they were actually written 3000 years ago or if they were written 30 years ago in my little Baptist church. That was how God was showing me the scripture's relation to our modern age.
You can certainly apply those words to salvation. You can also recognize another meaning, in which Nicodemus is troubled by trying to understand the meaning, and Jesus basically says to him that you'll never understand where the Spirit is moving to. You can't figure out where wind begins, or where it ends, or to what purpose it moves about. Similarly, in this mortal, corruptible form, we cannot understand the moving of the Spirit. We can only be born about by it, and follow it.
I'm not a huge fan of quoting other mortal men who I'm not sure if they were/are divinely inspired. You'll note that I rarely quote someone to prove a point. I'll quote someone in response, but I'd rather quote scripture to establish my point.
That said, here are two quotes that I find interesting:
Jerry Walls (Calvinism/Arminianism debate) said:
I don't personally condone or condemn Jerry Walls. I've never met him. I don't agree with everything he has to say. Then again, my grandfather was my greatest influence in my spiritual life, and I didn't agree 100% with him, either. I do like this quote, though, as it makes a good point.
Jesus reveals unto us God. He said if we know Him, then we know the Father. Yet Jesus seemed always willing to help others. He, to my knowledge, never flatly refused someone or turned them away. However, He did offer people the chance to be healed (the impotent man at Bethesda). Sometimes He healed people based on the faith of others (the man let down through the roof). Nothing about God, revealed in Jesus, leads me to believe God would simply pass over someone without giving them the opportunity to come to know Him.
John Calvin said:
In John 3, Jesus relates to Nicodemus that men loved darkness rather than light, a symbol of man's preference for sin over the things that are holy, an expected state of the fact that our flesh is at war with the spirit. Calvin states here that God grants to people some form of illumination for a time, then takes it away from them and strikes them with greater blindness than they had before, all because of their ungratefulness. Calvin's own quote makes one think that those people could have chosen to be grateful, but did not, a point of view that stands in line with Jesus's own statement in Matthew 23:37.
If you hold to a position that Calvinism is the true theology, then of course they're giving good answers. If you don't hold to Calvinism, then you stand at a point of two opposing ideologies, both of which can point to scripture to make their case.
I have to agree with you there, Icon. The PB doctrine has offered some points that have left me simply dumbfounded. I was not attempting to draw a parallel between your beliefs and pinoy's. It was a statement that I have a hard time seeing your respective doctrines within the scripture.
I have a tendency to write (especially on forums like this) in much the same way I would actually talk.
your opinion :smilewinkgrin:
your opinion :smilewinkgrin:
your opinion ...... no hard or angry feelings towards Calvinists, you'll just never convince me they are right. I'm 63 years old, been a Christian since age 11, so please don't tell me I just haven't "been enlightened" yet.
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