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Objections to Calvinism
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Most people that have been in a works doctrine all their life have found a comfort zone. The fleshly man loves to believe that it can attribute to his own salvation. They feel that God cannot do without them. To believe totally in the sovereign grace of God for salvation goes again the grain of flesh. It takes you out of your comfort zone of works, it strips you of all your self righteousness. Man cries, I cannot base my salvation on another's righteousness, I must have my own, Rom 10:3. If God sturs their mind up they feel uncomfortable, therefore they seek comfort in their own crowd, they make a covenant with death, lies are their refuge and under falsehood they hide themselves, Isa 28:15.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This really is the crux of the discussion, isn't it?
To rephrase the question to make it more broad:
Does the life, death, and resurrection of Christ (1) Make salvation possible for everyone or (2) Accomplish salvation for His people?
The conundrum with #1 is that if Christ's death merely makes salvation possible, His death actually accomplishes nothing...Blessings,
The Archangel
Yes.
The language of an accomplished redemption is found in Hebrews 7-10.....
To suggest that Jesus only makes possible.....but does not save ....is not found anywhere.
Since classic Arminian theology holds to Jesus death was purentially for all, that would be where they logically end ay, with God hoping some might make right choice to get saved!
Archangel, that was always one of the issues that bothered me for years...one that I had trouble with as a RC long before I thought to become an Arminian (that and General Universal Atonement)....I just didnt see it.
However the issue of placing babies that die before having any biblical means to save them was equally disconcerting. Then lastly, absolute predestination (the just making us puppets) thing never sits well with me.
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Real calvinism does not hold to absolute predestination though, and many also would hold that babies are all saved by grace of God...
]PreachTony
You can certainly apply those words to salvation. You can also recognize another meaning, in which Nicodemus is troubled by trying to understand the meaning, and Jesus basically says to him that you'll never understand where the Spirit is moving to. You can't figure out where wind begins, or where it ends, or to what purpose it moves about. Similarly, in this mortal, corruptible form, we cannot understand the moving of the Spirit. We can only be born about by it, and follow .
That is not a valid idea at all. The bible is not a poem in English class where we look to discover possible ideas. Jesus is only speaking of being born from above......He is not giving Nicodemus some useful tips on the.moving of the Spirit.
You can certainly apply those words to salvation. You can also recognize another meaning, in which Nicodemus is troubled by trying to understand the meaning, and Jesus basically says to him that you'll never understand where the Spirit is moving to. You can't figure out where wind begins, or where it ends, or to what purpose it moves about. Similarly, in this mortal, corruptible form, we cannot understand the moving of the Spirit. We can only be born about by it, and follow .
That is not a valid idea at all. The bible is not a poem in English class where we look to discover possible ideas. Jesus is only speaking of being born from above......He is not giving Nicodemus some useful tips on the.moving of the Spirit.
This is correct, and is consistent with partial open theism.
This is not the view of Calvinism, where all fallen persons have no ability to repent, seek God or trust in Christ. They can choose which sin to commitment, but cannot choose not to sin according to the mistaken doctrine of Calvinism. Think of it this way, would it make sense to hold a person underwater, then blame the one held under for drowning.
Again no verse or passage says this, but Calvinism claims it is so.
No verse says "all fallen men" never at any time want to repent, seek God, and truth in Christ. The opposite is found in scripture, see Matthew 23:13, where fallen mean are seeking God, actually entering heaven, until blocked by false teachers.
This is true, but not what Calvinism claims.
Again, if you are being held underwater, and finally you breath in the water and drown, you can say the one holding did not make the person breath in the water. You can say it, but it is absurd.
What are you basing that off of?
Which aspect of calvinism?
As ONLY Hyper cals would see God ruling in an absolute strict sense of the term, and believe even Spurgeon held to God saving infants by His grace/mercies...
.Van This is correct said:
Any form of open theism is rejected as non biblical doctrine.
Yes it is the view of Calvinism
They are also blinded by Satan so God has to supernaturally overcome satan
except this one:thumbsup:-
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
That is why we are told not only does the sinner have a mind at enmity against God, but the world the flesh and the devil keep him from truth.:thumbsup:
psalm 14:"1-3 says it...Paul repeats it in rom3
PreachTony
Active Member
Icon, I apparently missed this post earlier, but I'm curious...
From what I've gleaned from Calvinists, man is only capable of repenting if God supplies them grace to repent. If God does not give them grace, then they simply cannot come to repentance. If that is true, then is it not logical to say that God is stopping them from repenting?
I agree that God does not make them sin, but it seems like this particular theology is picking and choosing when man has the ability and the freedom to do certain things.
From what I've gleaned from Calvinists, man is only capable of repenting if God supplies them grace to repent. If God does not give them grace, then they simply cannot come to repentance. If that is true, then is it not logical to say that God is stopping them from repenting?
I agree that God does not make them sin, but it seems like this particular theology is picking and choosing when man has the ability and the freedom to do certain things.
That is the lasting effects of sin.Men can be religious in an idolatrous fashion, but cannot repent and submit to God on His terms.....Romans 8 :7-9....speak to man post fall.
In Christ...the new man is being is being restored . We are set free......to serve, not to sin.
Van said:
Here Calvinism presents absurdity with a straight face. According to Calvinism God predestines "whatsoever comes to pass" which includes our sins, yet then says God is not responsible for the sin's of men He predestined. Twaddle times two.Icon said:
Icon said:
Van said:
Here again we have the denial of Calvinism's doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability" where instead of saying they cannot turn to God (repent) and believe because they have no ability, the mistaken assertion is presented in code, ie. " it's the love of sin that sinners have that keeps them from repenting and believing in the gospel...." No verse says every fallen person never seeks God at any time, because Matthew 23:13 says some do!Icon said:
Icon said:
In response to this, Icon cited 2 Corinthians 4:4 which reads (NASB)Van said:
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Note, Satan, "the god of this world" has blinded some men but not all men, "those who are perishing." Why did Satan need to blind them, if from conception they were totally blind, having "Total Spiritual Inability?" So the very verse cited in support of the mistaken assertions of Calvinism, actually refutes Total Spiritual Inability.In you look at the prior verse (2 Cor. 4:3) you will see the gospel is not veiled to all men but only to those who are perishing (i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13). So by the numbers
1) All men are not conceived with total spiritual inability.
2) Some men are hardened by the god of this world, such that they are blinded to the gospel.
3) No verse says all men are totally blinded at conception due to the fall, and therefore again no verse says God must "supernaturally" overcome Satan's blinding of all men.
2) Some men are hardened by the god of this world, such that they are blinded to the gospel.
3) No verse says all men are totally blinded at conception due to the fall, and therefore again no verse says God must "supernaturally" overcome Satan's blinding of all men.
Next, in supposed support of "Total Spiritual Inability" two more verses are cited, Palms 14:1-3 and Romans 3:11, which says (NASB) "there is none who seek righteousness." It does not say there is none who seek righteousness "at any time" which is the Calvinist addition to the text to alter its meaning. In the context of Romans 3, Paul is demonstrating from scripture that "all men are under sin." We, as fallen men, are all unrighteous. We do not seek God all the time, but we have all turned aside into sin and because we are sinners, we are useless, all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
So again, the verses cited do not support total spiritual inability, but rather it supports we cannot save ourselves but need to believe in Christ for salvation.
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Van
Strawman Alert!........Dr. VAN TWADDLEMASTER....is at it again:laugh:
Monster strawman....
You cannot wait to blame God for mans sin. You attempt to cover it by saying it is Calvinistic teaching but you wickedly alter the wording in your zeal to portray that God somehow causes sin...which is the true absurdity:thumbs:
No TM....we are on to you
here are what the confessions say,not what you twist them to say;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things,
whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;
in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
:laugh: CODE Indeed....here is some of that CODE...we call it scripture;
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
here is some more "code" those tricky Calvinists like to use;
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I do not see the words You add here TM...."some men"????
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Sounds like all unbelievers....
It does not refute it...it shows that the world the flesh and the devil are too much for the natural, carnal man to overcome....It establishes it beyond a doubt.
Of course...God reveals His truth to His elect sheep...supernaturally as I posted earlier......you have failed in your quest once again....TM.
Strawman Alert!........Dr. VAN TWADDLEMASTER....is at it again:laugh:
let's see why you are known as the T.M.-
.
Monster strawman....
You cannot wait to blame God for mans sin. You attempt to cover it by saying it is Calvinistic teaching but you wickedly alter the wording in your zeal to portray that God somehow causes sin...which is the true absurdity:thumbs:
No TM....we are on to you
here are what the confessions say,not what you twist them to say;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things,
whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;
in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
:laugh: CODE Indeed....here is some of that CODE...we call it scripture;
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
here is some more "code" those tricky Calvinists like to use;
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
,
I do not see the words You add here TM...."some men"????
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Sounds like all unbelievers....
It does not refute it...it shows that the world the flesh and the devil are too much for the natural, carnal man to overcome....It establishes it beyond a doubt.
Of course...God reveals His truth to His elect sheep...supernaturally as I posted earlier......you have failed in your quest once again....TM.
convicted1
Guest
convicted1
Guest
I'm not Brother Iconoclast, but I'd like to chime in here...
To bring this to it's simplest terms, all the human race lost their righteousness, their "right standing" before God when Adam fell. All that was lost in Adam, was restored in Christ. Myriads of people dying lost shows that what Christ did was not for all sinners, but the elect only.
PreachTony
Active Member
Jump on in, convicted1. Welcome to the pool! :wavey:
Christ said He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13).
Christ told the Samaritan woman at the well that if she had known who it was asking her for a drink of water, then she would have asked Him for water instead, and He would've granted her "living water;" a "well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:10, 14)
According to Mark 8:34-38, when Jesus had called the people unto Him, He said "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
There are other examples. There is scripture after scripture that speaks to much the same thing. But in the examples listed, Jesus talks about "the people," and "whosoever will," and "sinners." He told the Samaritan woman that she could ask of Him and He would give her living water.
Those don't sound like the terms of "Elect" versus "unelect." It sounds like mankind is presented the option to accept or reject the Lord.
The truth is, and I'm not saying this to offend...just stating a fact, that Calvinist are just as capable, and often do, interpret scripture in a way that fits their belief system. Calvinists do it. Arminians do it. Free-willers do it. The Calvinist is just as convinced of their belief and interpretation as the non-Calvinist.
As I stated to Icon the other day, the nature of God as revealed in Christ Jesus, and as I see in the scripture, does not reveal a God who would willing pass over His lost creation without giving them a chance. To say that "what Christ did was not for all sinners, but the elect only" means we have to admit that we do not know who the Lord loves, so how do we effectively preach the word? We cannot tell people that the Lord loves them, because He may not. He may have already chosen to condemn them without ever giving them the opportunity, or the grace, to come to know Him...yet 1 John 4:8 tells us explicitly that God is love.
You ought to listen to John MacArthur sometime if you want to hear a Twaddlemaster! I turned on the radio just the other day and Johnny was on preaching on abiding in Christ. He was warning his flock again, like he always does, saying you better abide in Christ or you were never born again to begin with. He is constantly telling his congregation they better examine themselves and make sure they are not just playing church and fooling themselves. As if from a Calvinist pov they could do anything about it anyways!!! He is really a poor Calvinist preacher for he preaches like an Arminian all the time.
One time he was just railing on the lost for not coming to Christ, saying they deserve everything they get in the lake of fire! Sounds correct, unless you know he claims to be a Calvinist and then it makes him sound ridiculous.
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