Objections to Calvinism

[steaver]

To say that "what Christ did was not for all sinners, but the elect only" means we have to admit that we do not know who the Lord loves, so how do we effectively preach the word? We cannot tell people that the Lord loves them, because He may not. He may have already chosen to condemn them without ever giving them the opportunity, or the grace, to come to know Him...yet 1 John 4:8 tells us explicitly that God is love.

Calvinist cannot see the obvious error in their theology. Some even go as far as to say God is not only Love, but God is also Hate..........Just read a quote from a Calvinist in my signature field below......

 

[Iconoclast]

[PreachTony;

As I stated to Icon the other day, the nature of God as revealed in Christ Jesus, and as I see in the scripture, does not reveal a God who would willing pass over His lost creation without giving them a chance.

This is quite contrary to the biblical picture...this is your subjective 'feelings"

To say that "what Christ did was not for all sinners, but the elect only" means we have to admit that we do not know who the Lord loves, so how do we effectively preach the word?

The apostles never told an indiscriminant multitude the God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life....never. You never see the word love used in the book of acts.

We cannot tell people that the Lord loves them, because He may not.

That is correct. You can preach the love of God as the bible does....In Christ.

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

To be apart from Christ is to be apart from His love.


God LOVES sinners...in Christ. Not apart from Him. You can speak of God sending His Son in love. Everyone believing will be saved. Christ Jesus saves sinners by His grace and mercy. the fact is however he does not save everyone....so do not speak peace to a sinner that God has not spoken peace to.

He may have already chosen to condemn them without ever giving them the opportunity, or the grace, to come to know Him...yet 1 John 4:8 tells us explicitly that God is love.

yes it does and Hebrews 12 tells us that God is a consuming fire-
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Both are equally true. It is reconciled by who remains in Adam, and who is brought into Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinist cannot see the obvious error in their theology. Some even go as far as to say God is not only Love, but God is also Hate................

yes....the evil psalmist was a Cal-

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

yes steaver those evil cals wrote many scriptures like this;
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Steaver...in your world ...you wish the Cals did not write such things in scripture right? It ruins your whole explanation:laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Jump on in, convicted1. Welcome to the pool! :wavey:

Thank you! :love2:

Christ said He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13).

Correct.

Christ told the Samaritan woman at the well that if she had known who it was asking her for a drink of water, then she would have asked Him for water instead, and He would've granted her "living water;" a "well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:10, 14)

Correct again.

According to Mark 8:34-38, when Jesus had called the people unto Him, He said "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Correct.

There are other examples. There is scripture after scripture that speaks to much the same thing. But in the examples listed, Jesus talks about "the people," and "whosoever will," and "sinners." He told the Samaritan woman that she could ask of Him and He would give her living water.

Correct again.

Those don't sound like the terms of "Elect" versus "unelect." It sounds like mankind is presented the option to accept or reject the Lord.

This is where we part ways on our agreement. Shucks! ***snaps fingers*** :laugh: J/K

Here's where I believe you're wrong. The gospel call isn't an invitation to any and all w/o exception. There is an external call that the preacher makes, that goes out to all. But, there's the effectual call that goes out to the sheep. The sheep hear and respond in God's time. Jesus stated many places "let him who hath ears hear", Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:9, 4:23, 7:16, Luke 8:8, 14:45. Now, He wasn't talking about the ears we use to prop our glasses on, but rather, the inward man. He is what is dead in trespasses and sins, and can not hear. The external man, the fleshly man hears the gospel call, but wants nothing to do with it. Yet, when God quickens them, He gives them ears to hear with.

The truth is, and I'm not saying this to offend...just stating a fact, that Calvinist are just as capable, and often do, interpret scripture in a way that fits their belief system. Calvinists do it. Arminians do it. Free-willers do it. The Calvinist is just as convinced of their belief and interpretation as the non-Calvinist.

No doubt you're right. We all fail to have complete knowledge, and we're all wrong on many things.

As I stated to Icon the other day, the nature of God as revealed in Christ Jesus, and as I see in the scripture, does not reveal a God who would willing pass over His lost creation without giving them a chance. To say that "what Christ did was not for all sinners, but the elect only" means we have to admit that we do not know who the Lord loves, so how do we effectively preach the word? We cannot tell people that the Lord loves them, because He may not. He may have already chosen to condemn them without ever giving them the opportunity, or the grace, to come to know Him...yet 1 John 4:8 tells us explicitly that God is love.

Salvation is not a chance, but a reality, an actuality. All of this was accomplished by Christ. God didn't send His Son to die to make people saveable. He send Him to procure salvation for His sheep, His sheep that are scattered all over this earth. That is why He "so loved the world". The sheep are all encompassing this globe, terra ferma.

I have been doing a study of Exodus and Moses' dealings with Pharaoh. I want you, and anyone else who wants to do this...to show me one place where God commanded Moses to preach to them in a manner of reconciliation. It's not there. The only thing God told Moses to say was to "let My people go that they may worship Me", or something close to that.

When I get time, I will show you other verses that get misrepresented...

 

[steaver]

yes....the evil psalmist was a Cal-

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

yes steaver those evil cals wrote many scriptures like this;
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Steaver...in your world ...you wish the Cals did not write such things in scripture right? It ruins your whole explanation:laugh:

So God hated you first as you worked iniquity from birth, and then God changed His mind and chose to love you??

 

[salzer mtn]

preachTony quote : [As I stated to Icon the other day, the nature of God as revealed in Christ Jesus, and as I see in the scripture, does not reveal a God who would willing pass over His lost creation without giving them a chance. To say that "what Christ did was not for all sinners, but the elect only" means we have to admit that we do not know who the Lord loves, so how do we effectively preach the word? We cannot tell people that the Lord loves them, because He may not. He may have already chosen to condemn them without ever giving them the opportunity, or the grace, to come to know Him...yet 1 John 4:8 tells us explicitly that God is love. Un-quote]
As already been stated the love of God is only found in Christ. You address all men as sinners, but you have good news for sinners. Paul said, Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners. It is true by nature we are all sinners, but the good news is to sinners, that have been made to see their sins by the Holy Ghost. Men by nature see themselves as good, righteous, worthy. These men have never been awakened to their sin by God, they reject the good news that Christ Jesus saves sinners, because in reality they see themselves as not sinners. Saved sinners always see themselves as sinners saved by grace. They realize that if God with held his grace from them they would act as other men act, and do as other men do. There goes me but for the grace of God. They do not question why God does not save everyone but their question is, why would God save a dead dog like me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You ought to listen to John MacArthur sometime if you want to hear a Twaddlemaster! I turned on the radio just the other day and Johnny was on preaching on abiding in Christ. He was warning his flock again, like he always does, saying you better abide in Christ or you were never born again to begin with. He is constantly telling his congregation they better examine themselves and make sure they are not just playing church and fooling themselves. As if from a Calvinist pov they could do anything about it anyways!!! He is really a poor Calvinist preacher for he preaches like an Arminian all the time.

One time he was just railing on the lost for not coming to Christ, saying they deserve everything they get in the lake of fire! Sounds correct, unless you know he claims to be a Calvinist and then it makes him sound ridiculous.

Yea, I cant stand about the guy.

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

So God hated you first as you worked iniquity from birth, and then God changed His mind and chose to love you??

this response shows you have wandered into the deep end of the theology pool and do not know how to swim...:thumbs:

God changed His mind? That is not the biblical God at all. I cannot take you seriously if you post this nonsense:sleeping_2:

 

[convicted1]

steaver



this response shows you have wandered into the deep end of the theology pool and do not know how to swim...:thumbs:

God changed His mind? That is not the biblical God at all. I cannot take you seriously if you post this nonsense:sleeping_2:

In all seriousness, it appears to be a legit question, imo...


Why would I say that? What about the angels who left their first habitation? Did God hate them in heaven before they fell? This is baffling to me.

What are your thoughts on those angels who fell, including satan? Did God love them and then hate them after they rebelled?

 

[steaver]

In all seriousness, it appears to be a legit question, imo...


Why would I say that? What about the angels who left their first habitation? Did God hate them in heaven before they fell? This is baffling to me.

What are your thoughts on those angels who fell, including satan? Did God love them and then hate them after they rebelled?

Notice Icon wanted nothing to do with answering the question. Truth is he couldn't and won't.

 

[convicted1]

Notice Icon wanted nothing to do with answering the question. Truth is he couldn't and won't.

Be patient. Give him time...

 

[steaver]

Be patient. Give him time...

Well he proofed text some scripture to make a point that God hates people bc of their iniquity, so I would like to know if God hated him while he was living in iniquity before he was born-again.

 

[steaver]

Here they are again.....

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

yes steaver those evil cals wrote many scriptures like this;
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Now if God hatest all workers of iniquity, then God has to hate even the elect before they become saved. Now maybe Jacob and Icon never sinned. The definition of iniquity is "immoral or grossly unfair behavior". Maybe Icon was never immoral??

 

[Iconoclast]

Con1

Angels who sinned have no redemption..Angels who did not sin need no redemption but learn by looking into how God redeems His elect.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

2 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

God does not change at all...or He does not need to react to what we or angels do .....He knows all that will happen-he never needs to learn or watch what will happen and go to an alternate plan

 

[convicted1]

Con1

Angels who sinned have no redemption..Angels who did not sin need no redemption but learn by looking into how God redeems His elect.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

2 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

God does not change at all...or He does not need to react to what we or angels do .....He knows all that will happen-he never needs to learn or watch what will happen and go to an alternate plan

I agree with all of this. However, you did not answer my previous questions.


--The angels that fell, they were in the presence of God. Now, did God love them and then when they rebelled, did He then hate them? I can't imagine angels being there He hated. Please answer this.


BTW, I am pretty sure there's no clear cut answer, but I would like you thoughts and 'pinions on this.

 

[convicted1]

In all seriousness, it appears to be a legit question, imo...


Why would I say that? What about the angels who left their first habitation? Did God hate them in heaven before they fell? This is baffling to me.

What are your thoughts on those angels who fell, including satan? Did God love them and then hate them after they rebelled?

Bumping this so that Brother Iconoclast can answer whenever he has the time. Thanks Brother!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Bumping this so that Brother Iconoclast can answer whenever he has the time. Thanks Brother!!

Give him time Steve & Willis...he has got to consult the Calvinist handbook 1689 for the answer.:laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Give him time Steve & Willis...he has got to consult the Calvinist handbook 1689 for the answer.:laugh:

Now...that post was juvenile....:tongue3:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now...that post was juvenile....:tongue3:

:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

 

[salzer mtn]

I agree with all of this. However, you did not answer my previous questions.


--The angels that fell, they were in the presence of God. Now, did God love them and then when they rebelled, did He then hate them? I can't imagine angels being there He hated. Please answer this.


BTW, I am pretty sure there's no clear cut answer, but I would like you thoughts and 'pinions on this.

IMO the angels that fell and Satan himself were not in the heaven of heavens where Gods throne was. In Isa 14:12 the scripture says, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer. But in the thirteenth verse scripture says For thou hast said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. Satan and his angels were always in the lower heavens and had a unholy desire to ascend where God was and be like the most High. In 1 Tim 5:21 the scripture speaks of elect Angels. I believe these elect Angels were the ones Isaiah saw in his vision when he saw the Lord high and lifted up upon his throne and the Seraphims cried Holy holy holy. There were elect Angels and there were non-elect Angels. I believe the elect Angels are loved of God as their creator but the non- elect Angels were created as Pharaoh was, for a purpose.