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Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies. Literally or spiritually understood?

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1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
xlsdraw said:
Your Catholic Creed was quite vague and incorporates self-servicing false doctrines. The Holy Spirit would not guide such vague manipulable guidance. Which is why I stick with the scriptures. I base nothing on Catholicism.
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So you reject the Ecumenical Creeds? This makes you a heretic in their view. Stick with the Scriptures? Why do you reject Jesus' kingdom and side with the Pharisees?
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
John of Japan said:
Yeah, right, "literal destroy's meaning." So go down to the grocery store and tell them, "I wish for bread." Then when you get bread, tell them, "No, no, I wanted potatoes. Don't you understand spiritual interpretation?"

So first thing in the morning you read your Bible and are so blessed by your "spiritual" interpretation. Then all day long you do literal interpretation with everyone you talk to. Got it. ;)

Got to go. Have a great weekend.
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This is the problem, isn't it? the Pharisees and forced literalists read scripture like a cookbook. But Scripture is God's spiritual word.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
No, it survives the flames and goes out into eternity:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
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It doesn't exist in a physical fashion. It is here now but only the born again can see it.
 
X

xlsdraw

Active Member
1689Dave said:
So you reject the Ecumenical Creeds? This makes you a heretic in their view. Stick with the Scriptures? Why do you reject Jesus' kingdom and side with the Pharisees?
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The Ecumenical Creeds and the Pharisees are both deceptive. Your depravity must cause you to think everyone is either one or the other. I would argue that the producers of the Ecumenical Creeds and the Pharisees are cut from the same cloth.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
xlsdraw said:
The Ecumenical Creeds and the Pharisees are both deceptive. Your depravity must cause you to think everyone is either one or the other. I would argue that the producers of the Ecumenical Creeds and the Pharisees are cut from the same cloth.
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what's your basis for claiming this, if the creeds only make clear what the bible says? Did you know all the accepted books on cults say it is disagreeing with the Ecumenical Creeds that makes a cult a cult?
 
timtofly

timtofly

Well-Known Member
A failed physical kingdom, may only see a failed physical fulfillment. They were spiritually blinded themselves. There will soon be a physical kingdom, but only after all eyes are no longer spiritually blind.
 
X

xlsdraw

Active Member
1689Dave said:
what's your basis for claiming this, if the creeds only make clear what the bible says? Did you know all the accepted books on cults say it is disagreeing with the Ecumenical Creeds that makes a cult a cult?
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I'm not part of your "accepted" crowd and never will be. I believe the scriptures.
 
C

Calminian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1689Dave said:
Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies. Literally or spiritually understood?

It appears the major split in the Church today is over who to believe. Jesus and Daniel, or the Pharisees.

Daniel said the Kingdom of God would appear during the times of the ancient Roman Empire. And Jesus confirmed this as true. He preached the Kingdom was at hand. It already had been suffering violence. And that he casting out demons was proof it arrived. But he threw everyone a huge curveball to everyone by saying this.

Everyone expected a literal physical kingdom similar to David’s that would rid the land of the Romans and do all the Old Testament prophets said it would do.

But here’s what happened instead. Jesus continued preaching the gospel of the Kingdom describing it as invisible. Also spiritual in makeup. A kingdom only the born again could see. Later he said his kingdom is not of this world and comes without observation. That the kingdom is within you.

In contrast, the Pharisees taught a literal physical kingdom based on a literal interpretation of Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies. And so, here’s where the split begins. Do we side with Jesus and Daniel, thinking it must have been a spiritual kingdom they were thinking about? Opting for a purely spiritual kingdom that must now be present? Or do we side with the Pharisees and say Jesus and Daniel were wrong because the physical kingdom of the prophets didn’t show when it was supposed to?

What it means. If Jesus and Daniel were right, all the Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies were symbols of the spiritual Kingdom, not to be taken literally. Similar to Revelation where the symbols depict spiritual realities. That is how Jesus and the Church interpreted them.

Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. And eventually, the disciples caught on. Peter preached the completed gospel at Pentecost. It includes Jesus’ death burial and resurrection. With his ascent to heaven where he presently rules from David’s Throne. Nearly all versions of the gospel miss this that Jesus is now seated on David’s throne in heavenly Jerusalem above.

Jesus is Ezekiel’s Temple. The Temple made without hands. And when you study it, only God can build it because of incomplete height measurements. You would need to add to God’s word in order to build it.

Jesus also said John the Baptist was Elijah. Meaning Elijah was a symbol for John.

He also taught in the Beatitudes that believers are Israel to whom the promises apply. This by recognizing the fruit they bear. Paul elaborates on this later defining Jesus as Abraham’s Seed to whom the promises apply.

The Pharisees rejected this since it didn’t match their millennial views of the 1000 year-long physical kingdom they expected. One that ultimately ends in a third temple and animal sacrifices for the whole world. Incidentally, Hebrews 6 calls this an unforgivable sin even though many Christians have it in mind to do just this if and when the occasion arises.

So if we have what it takes, we need to start reading our Bibles with spiritual eyes. Knowing the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Pharisees know how to read a cookbook. But they have a veil over their eyes and don’t know how to read a bible.



Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

“That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)
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This one is easy. If you believe OT prophesies about Christ's first coming were literal, it would be wholly inconsistent to believe prophesies about his second coming were not.

 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Calminian said:
This one is easy. If you believe OT prophesies about Christ's first coming were literal, it would be wholly inconsistent to believe prophesies about his second coming were not.

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Literal = Phariseeism. DO you think Jesus was wrong when he said the kingdom arrived with him? And think the Pharisees were right?
 
C

Calminian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1689Dave said:
Literal = Phariseeism. DO you think Jesus was wrong when he said the kingdom arrived with him? And think the Pharisees were right?
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You'll need to quote Jesus direct, so we can talk about exactly what he said. Often prophecies are both futuristic and present, like our adoption. There is a future sense, and a present sense.

There are also prophesies that have not yet been fulfilled, but are spoken about in the past tense. We see this in the OT often.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Calminian said:
You'll need to quote Jesus direct, so we can talk about exactly what he said. Often prophecies are both futuristic and present, like our adoption. There is a future sense, and a present sense.

There are also prophesies that have not yet been fulfilled, but are spoken about in the past tense. We see this in the OT often.
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Please give an example of dual fulfillment.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
xlsdraw said:
The Holy Spirit guides me. You though seem to be greatly influenced by men.
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The Holy Spirit guides me too. In reading not only scripture, but also the works of profound teachers God placed in the church. Every time you make a claim about scripture saying this or that, you have a creed. The historic creeds are based on centuries of debate and challenge that refined them for our sakes.
 
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