Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies. Literally or spiritually understood?

[George Antonios]

It's all the same eternal kingdom.

That's all you got to say to post #22? Just stating something does not make it so.

 

[1689Dave]

That's all you got to say to post #22? Just stating something does not make it so.

Post what you think is an issue.

 

[George Antonios]

Post what you think is an issue.

Post #22.

 

[1689Dave]

Post #22.

Post it.

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus is Israel and the restoration of Israel began with his resurrection. And is completed with the resurrection of believers (Israel) on the last day. Paul and Matthew teach Jesus is Israel.

You make a lot of statements without Biblical proof. Where in the world do Paul and Matthew teach that Jesus is Israel?

 

[John of Japan]

Peter preached the Gospel of the kingdom in its latest form. The same Paul preached.

"In its latest form?" What in the world does that mean? Do you actually believe in the evolution of the Gospel??

 

[1689Dave]

"In its latest form?" What in the world does that mean? Do you actually believe in the evolution of the Gospel??

Abraham had the gospel. Was it as complete as the one Peter sand Paul preached?

 

[1689Dave]

You make a lot of statements without Biblical proof. Where in the world do Paul and Matthew teach that Jesus is Israel?

You should know this as a bible school teacher.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't have the resources but they did condemn premillennialism as heresy and affirmed Amillennialism as orthodoxy. Do your own search and prove it wrong.

Huh? You post something, I call it fake, and then I have to prove it when you made such a bald statement?

Hey, okay. I can't stop you from believing a myth, but I don't have to disprove it. Others have. Check this out by a genuine scholar on Bible.org, which a very reputable website: The Phantom Heresy: Did the Council of Ephesus (431) Condemn Chiliasm? | Bible.org

 

[John of Japan]

Abraham had the gospel. Was it as complete as the one Peter sand Paul preached?

Where does the Bible say that "Abraham had the Gospel?" Work with me here; I'm a Bible teacher, so I have this annoying habit of asking for Biblical proof.

 

[1689Dave]

Where does the Bible say that "Abraham had the Gospel?" Work with me here; I'm a Bible teacher, so I have this annoying habit of asking for Biblical proof.

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.” Galatians 3:8 (KJV 1900)

 

[John of Japan]

You should know this as a bible school teacher.

I'm a Bible college and seminary teacher, actually. And with my authority as a Bible teacher , I hereby declare that you are wrong, that Paul and Matthew do NOT teach that Jesus = Israel. The ball is now in your court.

 

[John of Japan]

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.” Galatians 3:8 (KJV 1900)

Great! Now you have actually backed up a statement with Scripture. So, the Gospel preached to Abraham was that all nations would be blessed through the seed of Abraham. So, OT believers from Adam and Eve on (Gen. 3:15, the protoevangelion) have looked for the Messiah to come, and we look at the Messiah who came.

So, how does this prove anything about amillennialism?

 

[1689Dave]

Huh? You post something, I call it fake, and then I have to prove it when you made such a bald statement?

Hey, okay. I can't stop you from believing a myth, but I don't have to disprove it. Others have. Check this out by a genuine scholar on Bible.org, which a very reputable website: The Phantom Heresy: Did the Council of Ephesus (431) Condemn Chiliasm? | Bible.org

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Ephesus made this creed unchangeable so you get it twice. Millennialism is heresy according to the Scriptures and the Church.

 

[1689Dave]

Great! Now you have actually backed up a statement with Scripture. So, the Gospel preached to Abraham was that all nations would be blessed through the seed of Abraham. So, OT believers from Adam and Eve on (Gen. 3:15, the protoevangelion) have looked for the Messiah to come, and we look at the Messiah who came.

So, how does this prove anything about amillennialism?

Who said it does?

 

[1689Dave]

I'm a Bible college and seminary teacher, actually. And with my authority as a Bible teacher , I hereby declare that you are wrong, that Paul and Matthew do NOT teach that Jesus = Israel. The ball is now in your court.

Matthew and Paul teach Jesus (and consequently the church) are Israel. Some of the most learned were the greatest deceivers today and in church history.

 

[John of Japan]

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Ephesus made this creed unchangeable so you get it twice.

Um, yeah, this can b a premil statement just as easy. I could sign this. Remember, there is David's throne and the Kingdom of God in the premil position: two kingdoms. The Davidic throne is clearly 1000 years, and the Kingdom of God clearly forever.

Millennialism is heresy according to the Scriptures and the Church.

Please prove from Scripture that Millennialism is heresy. It is more usual that the amil position is heresy--heresy being Biblically that which causes division. You are now causing division by stating that the amil position is the only Biblical position.

Oh, and by the way, what in the world is "the church"? If you mean the 4th century "church," that was not God's church in many cases. My church and all the churches I grew up in and pastored preach premil. So in my world, "the church" teaches that millennialism is NOT heresy.

For what it's worth, when my grandfather went to seminary in the late 1920's, he was taught the amil position. Unfortunately for his profs, he was also taught solid Greek exegesis. When he examined the Scriptures literally, he changed his mind. When one believes in "spiritual" interpretation (which isn't), he can come up with whatever position he wants to.

 

[John of Japan]

Matthew and Paul teach Jesus (and consequently the church) are Israel. Some of the most learned were the greatest deceivers today and in church history.

So, you can't prove that Matthew and Paul teach that "Jesus is Israel." I asked for Scripture and you can't provide any. Are you some kind of authority that everyone should believe without Scriptural proof?

 

[George Antonios]

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.” Galatians 3:8 (KJV 1900)

Just for the record, gospel just means "glad tidings".
The gospel that was preached to Abraham was the "glad tidings" that Galatians 3:8 itself defines: In thee shall all nations be blessed. It was the glad tidings that Abraham would beget a supernatural seed through whom even the Gentiles would be blessed. Full stop. It was not that that seed would die on a cross, be buried, then rise again the third day to save all who believe on his name. That was a further revelation only clarified around the time of the cross, which is why even the apostles had no idea what Christ was talking about when he repeatedly stated he would die and rise again.
No one was saved by looking forward to the cross. That line sounds good, but finds no Biblical support.

 

[1689Dave]

Just for the record, gospel just means "glad tidings".
The gospel that was preached to Abraham was the "glad tidings" that Galatians 3:8 itself defines: In thee shall all nations be blessed. It was the glad tidings that Abraham would beget a supernatural seed through whom even the Gentiles would be blessed. Full stop. It was not that that seed would die on a cross, be buried, then rise again the third day to save all who believe on his name. That was a further revelation only revealed around the time of the cross, which is why even the apostles had no idea what Christ was talking about when he repeatedly stated he would die and rise again.
No one was saved by looking forward to the cross. That line sounds good, but finds no Biblical support.

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)

Are you saying God can't trust himself to deliver? Even though he controls all?