Old Testament men were not saved by "looking forward to the cross"

[Aaron]

The problem here is that, as church-age Gentiles saved by the gospel of the grace of God as revealed to Paul, whenever the word gospel appears, we reflexively and retrospectively infuse it with the connotation of the gospel of Paul.

But the word gospel simply means "glad tidings" and those "glad tidings" often differed in the scriptures.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: is a reference to the gospel of the kingdom, not the gospel of the grace of God.

That gospel - glad tidings - of the kingdom, was that the Jews would inherit the land and rule it and rest in it, if they would believe God's promise about the land and act on it; it had nothing to do with God incarnate dying on a cross and rising again for justification by faith.

Please note that no one so far as pointed out an error in the OP or dealt with the material presented therein. It has all simply been the repeating of a truth "we know is so", and yet, no one in the gospels knew.

That the cross was foreshadowed in scriptures, no one denies, but in the very passage where Paul mentions the law's foreshadowing of the cross, he also states that the law was not about the gospel of the grace of God of salvation by faith, but was about works:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But [contradistinction coming up] the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise [and now quoting Moses again], Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above : )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

We want Catholics and Orthodox to get over their received traditional "truths" but we won't do what we expect of them.

LOL. The Gospel of Paul, as you put it, is the Gospel that was ever preached. The seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent, but the serpent would be allowed to bruise His heel. No matter how you slice it, it comes up the Cross.

 

[Van]

Please show scripture for old testiment saints being saved?
If any one could have been saved before Christ there would have been no need of Christ to come.
MB

Did I say the OT Saints were "saved" before Christ? Nope
Please re-read my post and stop misrepresenting my view.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Dispensationalism with a captial D is a doctrine that teaches the church is a sort of parentheses in God's real plan which was the elevation of the Jews as the supreme rulers of of the world, Christ as King, with all nations under the law of sacrifice and offering.

Dispensationalism with a captial D is a doctrine that teaches the church is a sort of parentheses in God's real plan which was the elevation of the Jews as the supreme rulers of of the world, Christ as King, with all nations under the law of sacrifice and offering.

I'm not sure if you are a Calvernist. But usually ,rather than address the arguments will most often track you to a position ,someone through history labelled a heresey or a boogeyman label ,to try to poison the well .

 

[Barry Johnson]

LOL. The Gospel of Paul, as you put it, is the Gospel that was ever preached. The seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent, but the serpent would be allowed to bruise His heel. No matter how you slice it, it comes up the Cross.

Which you only know by looking back because of what we now read .

 

[atpollard]

I'm not sure if you are a Calvernist

He is not.
There are no “Calvernists”.

 

[Barry Johnson]

He is not.
There are no “Calvernists”.

How do you know? There could be a sect out there with that name who also believe in daft ideas like regeneration precedes faith .

 

[MB]

Did I say the OT Saints were "saved" before Christ? Nope
Please re-read my post and stop misrepresenting my view.

I'm only commenting in what I read in your post.
This is what you said again
", but the OT saints gained approval through (or by means of) their faith in God and His promises. The coming Messiah's"
Then at the end of your post you said gospel was a mystery to them.
No one is saved with out Christ and they did not have Christ. David said;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
David didn't know the path of life and had to be told it by Christ and believe before he could be saved. They were not approved of. Which made your post sound like you were saying they were approved for Salvation when they weren't.
MB

 

[atpollard]

How do you know?

[1Corinthians 12:4-11 NIV]

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.​

That’s how.

 

[Benjamin]

If you would show me in the Scriptures where a believer was ever saved by their faith ( instead of through it ), I would appreciate it.
Until then, I maintain that one's faith does not save them...

God judges one's faith; by their faith they are not under the law. There is One Gospel, a Covenant brought to light through a matter of Progressive Revelation in which the judgement of God is, and always has been, based according to one's faith:

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

"In Scripture", "By their faith"? :

Act_15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom_3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom_5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom_11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

2Co_1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2Co_5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal_5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Heb_11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb_11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb_11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Heb_11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Heb_11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Heb_11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Heb_11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Heb_11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Heb_11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Heb_11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Heb_11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Joh 1:9-14 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


1Jn 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Aaron]

I'm not sure if you are a Calvernist. But usually ,rather than address the arguments will most often track you to a position ,someone through history labelled a heresey or a boogeyman label ,to try to poison the well .

Hmmm. Except that some were citing Dispensational notions in their replies. I only brought them up saying that it's a good thing complete understanding is not a requisite to saving faith.

 

[Aaron]

Which you only know by looking back because of what we now read .

You have no idea what Adam and Eve understood. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the blindness and dull hearing of the audience not withstanding, whether it's described as a bruised heel or a slain lamb, it comes up the cross.

What advantage do you think you hold in seeing or hearing over them of the OT anyway? Whether God speaks plainly, in parables or metaphors, you have no more power by nature to receive it than did they.

 

[Van]

I'm only commenting in what I read in your post.
This is what you said again
", but the OT saints gained approval through (or by means of) their faith in God and His promises. The coming Messiah's"
Then at the end of your post you said gospel was a mystery to them.
No one is saved with out Christ and they did not have Christ. David said;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
David didn't know the path of life and had to be told it by Christ and believe before he could be saved. They were not approved of. Which made your post sound like you were saying they were approved for Salvation when they weren't.
MB

My post indicated they had to wait in Abraham's bosom. I did not say they were saved before Christ died. Please stop misrepresenting my view with your bogus

Each and every OT saint obtained approval through their faith in God and His promises.

And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

I expect you do not know the scripture that tells us when we are made perfect. Hebrews 12:23 tells us we are made perfect when we are joined to the church of the firstborn, which means when we are placed (baptized) into Christ. This is what the OT saints had to wait for.

 

[Calminian]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!

View attachment 4099

In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

They knew a Conquerer was coming based on the first prophesy of the Seed in Gen. 3:15. This Conquerer was going to defeat our adversary the devil.

I think it's fair to say they didn't have the bright light of history we have today, and didn't understand the atonement in depth as it is revealed in the NT (the Cross). But it's false to say they were not looking forward to the Messiah. OT saints believed what God revealed, and Christ was foretold. We see this in the two witnesses of Luke, Simeon and Anna. Also, the Magi knew of Christ's arrival and looked forward to him.

Yes, there were some that did not recognize Christ and rejected him, but I don't think these represent believers.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You have no idea what Adam and Eve understood. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the blindness and dull hearing of the audience not withstanding, whether it's described as a bruised heel or a slain lamb, it comes up the cross.

What advantage do you think you hold in seeing or hearing over them of the OT anyway? Whether God speaks plainly, in parables or metaphors, you have no more power by nature to receive it than did they.

Would you say we have a complete bible .,including things hidden before that are revealed later by Paul for example ?Of course not to mention before and after the cross differences . Col.1.26, Rom 16 .25,26 . luke 4.21 . Mat 13.35 .Col 2.14- ..
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You have no idea what Adam and Eve understood. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the blindness and dull hearing of the audience not withstanding, whether it's described as a bruised heel or a slain lamb, it comes up the cross.

What advantage do you think you hold in seeing or hearing over them of the OT anyway? Whether God speaks plainly, in parables or metaphors, you have no more power by nature to receive it than did they.

By you looking back with a complete bible is not the same as looking forward . Especially with the Major events that have occurred and the things concealed / hidden now revealed .

 

[George Antonios]

If you would show me in the Scriptures where a believer was ever saved by their faith ( instead of through it ), I would appreciate it.
Until then, I maintain that one's faith does not save them...

If you recall, I had already provided those verses in a previous discussion between us.

 

[George Antonios]

LOL. The Gospel of Paul, as you put it, is the Gospel that was ever preached. The seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent, but the serpent would be allowed to bruise His heel. No matter how you slice it, it comes up the Cross.

You're so often laughing you can't hear what's being said.

 

[George Antonios]

But it's false to say they were not looking forward to the Messiah.

I never said that. I said they weren't looking forward to a Messiah that would die.

 

[SleekB]

I never said that. I said they weren't looking forward to a Messiah that would die.

Acts 2: 29-31
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

David knew, and was well aware that his resurrection would happen before the body would decay.

 

[Dave G]

If you recall, I had already provided those verses in a previous discussion between us.

If you recall, the Bible states that a person is saved by God's mercy and grace, and it's not according to our works ( Titus 3:5-6 ).

So, if it's faith that saves, then God saves according to our works...
Whether belief, faith, attempts at keeping the Law;

It's all the same, George.

God's choosing of sinners to salvation, found in many passages, is what completely disqualifies our efforts as men in determining our own destiny as rebellious sinners.
In other words, it's all of grace and none of works.

Respectfully, I've presented the passages that show this, and to me, they don't seem to have the same significance to you that they do to those of us who read and understand the words themselves.

For example, acts of the Apostles 13:48 very plainly declares that the reason people believe is that they were ordained to eternal life.
John 10:26 declares that the reason people do not believe is because they are not "of" Christ's sheep.
John 6:29 tells us that even belief is a work of God.
John 6:44 tells us that no man can come to Christ unless they are drawn, and those that are drawn will be raised up at the last day.
John 6:64-65 tells us, in no uncertain terms, that no man can come to Christ unless it is given to them by the Father to do so.
Romans 8:28-30 clears up the question of who is justified, by declaring that only those that are foreknown will ever experience the benefits of being predestinated conformed to the image of Christ, being called by the power of the Holy Ghost, being justified by the blood of His Son and having their bodies resurrected in a glorified and sin-free state.

I'm not sure why these passages continue to elude you, George, but they have significance to me and others like me.