Old Testament men were not saved by "looking forward to the cross"

[Barry Johnson]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!

View attachment 4099

In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

I had to deprogramme from this also . When I mentioned this in a bible study, it ruffled feathers . Its obvious the disciples were not 'looking forward to the cross '. Peter chops a man's ear off ,rather than let the cross happen.

 

[1689Dave]

It was always about election in Christ. WHich resulted in the New Birth and little information. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So Abel, Job & friends, even Lot and all listed in Hebrews 11 were saved with little more than the promise God made to Abraham. If God blesses, salvation is the outcome. Jesus provided the complete revelation also preached at Pentecost by Peter, continuing through Paul.

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, ‘In thee shall all nations be blessed’.” Galatians 3:8 (NCPB)

 

[Barry Johnson]

It was always about election in Christ. WHich resulted in the New Birth and little information. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So Abel, Job & friends, even Lot and all listed in Hebrews 11 were saved with little more than the promise God made to Abraham. If God blesses, salvation is the outcome. Jesus provided the complete revelation also preached at Pentecost by Peter, continuing through Paul.

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, ‘In thee shall all nations be blessed’.” Galatians 3:8 (NCPB)

Would you agree that Galations 5.22 is talking about the Fruit of The Spirit in context of AFTER conversion and not before ? There's no mention of ' fruit ' of the Holy Spirit in any pre conversion sense ?

 

[Aaron]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!

View attachment 4099

In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

*sigh*

The Gospel was preached to them as well as to us, Hebrews 4:2 , but it was preached through types and shadows. And faith is the means by which any work of God is accomplished. So though they might not have known Christ by the name Jesus, they knew Him as the Most High God, for whom Melchizedek was a priest, and they knew Him as the God of Abraham, as the Prophet who was to come as Moses, and as revelation was given, as the tabernacle, the priesthood, and the offerings.

It doesn't matter at all that they didn't have a more full understanding, just as it doesn't matter at all that anyone today have a full understanding. It's a Person that saves, not a doctrine, and that's reassuring, especially after seeing some of the Dispensational notions postulated in response to your error.

 

[Van]

On and on Calvinists will post claims and offer deflections, but the OT saints gained approval through (or by means of) their faith in God and His promises. The coming Messiah's gospel was a mystery to them.

Why do Calvinists hoist this canard? According to their bogus doctrine, no one would seek God unless compelled by irresistible grace, so all the OT saints had to be compelled and given "saving faith." And that gift of course is faith in the gospel of Christ.

It is a ludicrous assertion, but there you have it.

But what is the actual biblical truth? Presented in post #5 by George and represented by me below:

The OT Saints gained approval by means of God crediting their faith (for example Abraham's) as righteousness and so when they physically died, their spirit/souls were taken to "Abraham's bosom" were they waited (in comfort) to be made perfect after Christ's death.

 

[atpollard]

It's a Person that saves, not a doctrine, and that's reassuring, especially after seeing some of the Dispensational notions postulated in response to your error.

I can heartily agree with you that it is WHO you know (or more correctly, WHO KNOWS YOU) that saves, rather than WHAT we know. However I am reminded of a statement by R.C. Sproul at a Conference in Orlando where he stated that Everyone is a dispensationalist, unless you believe nothing changed when we were expelled from the garden of Eden.

There are at least 3 dispensations that all can agree on.

• Adam and God walking together in the garden of Eden.
• The present dispensation.
• The new Heaven and Earth when Jesus returns to dwell with His bride forever.

Beyond that, we are splitting hairs conjecturing about whether to subdivide “the present age” into smaller parts and where those divides should be. In some sense, God is constantly revealing more and doing something new, and in another sense, God never changes and his plan for us is the same as it was for Adam.

 

[Barry Johnson]

*sigh*

The Gospel was preached to them as well as to us, Hebrews 4:2 , but it was preached through types and shadows. And faith is the means by which any work of God is accomplished. So though they might not have known Christ by the name Jesus, they knew Him as the Most High God, for whom Melchizedek was a priest, and they knew Him as the God of Abraham, as the Prophet who was to come as Moses, and as revelation was given, as the tabernacle, the priesthood, and the offerings.

It doesn't matter at all that they didn't have a more full understanding, just as it doesn't matter at all that anyone today have a full understanding. It's a Person that saves, not a doctrine, and that's reassuring, especially after seeing some of the Dispensational notions postulated in response to your error.

Is the 'good news 'about entering in to the '.rest 'the same as 1 cor .15 .1-4 . Anymore than being told to put blood on the door post and lintels , could be good news today ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

*sigh*

The Gospel was preached to them as well as to us, Hebrews 4:2 , but it was preached through types and shadows. And faith is the means by which any work of God is accomplished. So though they might not have known Christ by the name Jesus, they knew Him as the Most High God, for whom Melchizedek was a priest, and they knew Him as the God of Abraham, as the Prophet who was to come as Moses, and as revelation was given, as the tabernacle, the priesthood, and the offerings.

It doesn't matter at all that they didn't have a more full understanding, just as it doesn't matter at all that anyone today have a full understanding. It's a Person that saves, not a doctrine, and that's reassuring, especially after seeing some of the Dispensational notions postulated in response to your error.

And can anyone be saved today apart from the good news we preach today ?
1cor 121For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[George Antonios]

Peter chops a man's ear off ,rather than let the cross happen.

I'm quoting this!

 

[George Antonios]

The Gospel was preached to them as well as to us, Hebrews 4:2

The problem here is that, as church-age Gentiles saved by the gospel of the grace of God as revealed to Paul, whenever the word gospel appears, we reflexively and retrospectively infuse it with the connotation of the gospel of Paul.

But the word gospel simply means "glad tidings" and those "glad tidings" often differed in the scriptures.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: is a reference to the gospel of the kingdom, not the gospel of the grace of God.

That gospel - glad tidings - of the kingdom, was that the Jews would inherit the land and rule it and rest in it, if they would believe God's promise about the land and act on it; it had nothing to do with God incarnate dying on a cross and rising again for justification by faith.

Please note that no one so far as pointed out an error in the OP or dealt with the material presented therein. It has all simply been the repeating of a truth "we know is so", and yet, no one in the gospels knew.

That the cross was foreshadowed in scriptures, no one denies, but in the very passage where Paul mentions the law's foreshadowing of the cross, he also states that the law was not about the gospel of the grace of God of salvation by faith, but was about works:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But [contradistinction coming up] the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise [and now quoting Moses again], Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above : )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

We want Catholics and Orthodox to get over their received traditional "truths" but we won't do what we expect of them.

 

[Barry Johnson]

NT believers aren't saved by "looking to the cross" either.

On and on Calvinists will post claims and offer deflections, but the OT saints gained approval through (or by means of) their faith in God and His promises. The coming Messiah's gospel was a mystery to them.

Why do Calvinists hoist this canard? According to their bogus doctrine, no one would seek God unless compelled by irresistible grace, so all the OT saints had to be compelled and given "saving faith." And that gift of course is faith in the gospel of Christ.

It is a ludicrous assertion, but there you have it.

But what is the actual biblical truth? Presented in post #5 by George and represented by me below:

The OT Saints gained approval by means of God crediting their faith (for example Abraham's) as righteousness and so when they physically died, their spirit/souls were taken to "Abraham's bosom" were they waited (in comfort) to be made perfect after Christ's death.

This may help those who may have already started to doubt Calivinism .

 

[George Antonios]

Perhaps not overtly, but they did know about a coming Saviour:

" And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all nations be blessed." ( Galatians 3:8 ).

" And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ." ( Luke 2:25-26 ).

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." ( John 5:46 ).


Plus, it's not like some of the details were not already prophesied:

Isaiah 53:1-12,
and this:


" For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." ( Psalms 22:14-18 ).

All one has to do is look backwards at what pieces were available in the Old Testament and see them, George.
Christ crucified was definitely hinted at.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Exactly, that's all it said. It didn't say anything about how that blessing would be effected...which is why no apostle, or disciple, or any one else, had a clue!
The prophecies and shadows were not even understood of the prophets, according to Peter.
1Pe_1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The prophecies and shadows were used ad-hoc and post-hoc to prove that the Jesus was the Messiah and that his death and resurrection were scripturally legit. But no one, no one, saw it coming. Simeon and Anna were looking for a redeeming Messiah, but it doesn't say they knew he would die for their sins. All Jews awaited the Messiah, so what?

Please see post #30 for more.

 

[MB]

*sigh*

The Gospel was preached to them as well as to us, Hebrews 4:2 , but it was preached through types and shadows. And faith is the means by which any work of God is accomplished. So though they might not have known Christ by the name Jesus, they knew Him as the Most High God, for whom Melchizedek was a priest, and they knew Him as the God of Abraham, as the Prophet who was to come as Moses, and as revelation was given, as the tabernacle, the priesthood, and the offerings.

It doesn't matter at all that they didn't have a more full understanding, just as it doesn't matter at all that anyone today have a full understanding. It's a Person that saves, not a doctrine, and that's reassuring, especially after seeing some of the Dispensational notions postulated in response to your error.

The truth is that only Jesus Saves. No where in scripture is anyone ever given Salvation by God or the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus saves.

 

[MB]

On and on Calvinists will post claims and offer deflections, but the OT saints gained approval through (or by means of) their faith in God and His promises. The coming Messiah's gospel was a mystery to them.

Why do Calvinists hoist this canard? According to their bogus doctrine, no one would seek God unless compelled by irresistible grace, so all the OT saints had to be compelled and given "saving faith." And that gift of course is faith in the gospel of Christ.

It is a ludicrous assertion, but there you have it.

But what is the actual biblical truth? Presented in post #5 by George and represented by me below:

The OT Saints gained approval by means of God crediting their faith (for example Abraham's) as righteousness and so when they physically died, their spirit/souls were taken to "Abraham's bosom" were they waited (in comfort) to be made perfect after Christ's death.

Please show scripture for old testiment saints being saved?
If any one could have been saved before Christ there would have been no need of Christ to come.
MB

 

[Alcott]

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 10 - 4 . Hebrews, that is; priestly prayers and faces of faith.

 

[Dave G]

The prophecies and shadows were used ad-hoc and post-hoc to prove that the Jesus was the Messiah and that his death and resurrection were scripturally legit. But no one, no one, saw it coming. Simeon and Anna were looking for a redeeming Messiah, but it doesn't say they knew he would die for their sins. All Jews awaited the Messiah, so what?

Please see post #30 for more.

OK, I agree.

No one completely foresaw that the Messiah would actually come and die....
Or rise again.

That the cross was foreshadowed in scriptures, no one denies, but in the very passage where Paul mentions the law's foreshadowing of the cross, he also states that the law was not about the gospel of the grace of God of salvation by faith, but was about works:

If you would show me in the Scriptures where a believer was ever saved by their faith ( instead of through it ), I would appreciate it.
Until then, I maintain that one's faith does not save them...

God does, and their faith is a by-product of His work.
Even more, it is the evidence of that work ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and it was authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It may seem like a small detail with which to take exception, but to me it makes all the difference between grace and works.

Back to the OP:

As I see the Scriptures stating, no one is actually saved by doing something;
Looking to the cross or otherwise.
I agree that, similar to the serpent being lifted up, all who look to Christ in the spiritual sense will be saved.

But God's decision to save someone was and is always by His mercy and grace towards a person ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

 

[Barry Johnson]

OK, I agree.

No one completely foresaw that the Messiah would actually come and die....
Or rise again.

If you would show me in the Scriptures where a believer was ever saved by their faith ( instead of through it ), I would appreciate it.
Until then, I maintain that one's faith does not save them...

God does, and their faith is a by-product of His work.
Even more, it is the evidence of that work ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and it was authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It may seem like a small detail with which to take exception, but to me it makes all the difference between grace and works.

Back to the OP:

As I see the Scriptures stating, no one is actually saved by doing something;
Looking to the cross or otherwise.
I agree that, similar to the serpent being lifted up, all who look to Christ in the spiritual sense will be saved.

But God's decision to save someone was and is always by His mercy and grace towards a person ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

1¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
??

 

[Barry Johnson]

1¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
??

You never responded to the verses I posted about Paul explaining clearly Faith is not a work .

 

[Barry Johnson]

OK, I agree.

No one completely foresaw that the Messiah would actually come and die....
Or rise again.

If you would show me in the Scriptures where a believer was ever saved by their faith ( instead of through it ), I would appreciate it.
Until then, I maintain that one's faith does not save them...

God does, and their faith is a by-product of His work.
Even more, it is the evidence of that work ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and it was authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It may seem like a small detail with which to take exception, but to me it makes all the difference between grace and works.

Back to the OP:

As I see the Scriptures stating, no one is actually saved by doing something;
Looking to the cross or otherwise.
I agree that, similar to the serpent being lifted up, all who look to Christ in the spiritual sense will be saved.

But God's decision to save someone was and is always by His mercy and grace towards a person ( Titus 3:5-7 ).

God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)" No God you cannot save those that use their own faculties, we must insist that this is a work and you are sovereign, we need this to be ,so that the rest of our system can work "

 

[Aaron]

I can heartily agree with you that it is WHO you know (or more correctly, WHO KNOWS YOU) that saves, rather than WHAT we know. However I am reminded of a statement by R.C. Sproul at a Conference in Orlando where he stated that Everyone is a dispensationalist, unless you believe nothing changed when we were expelled from the garden of Eden.

There are at least 3 dispensations that all can agree on.

• Adam and God walking together in the garden of Eden.
• The present dispensation.
• The new Heaven and Earth when Jesus returns to dwell with His bride forever.

Beyond that, we are splitting hairs conjecturing about whether to subdivide “the present age” into smaller parts and where those divides should be. In some sense, God is constantly revealing more and doing something new, and in another sense, God never changes and his plan for us is the same as it was for Adam.

Dispensationalism with a captial D is a doctrine that teaches the church is a sort of parentheses in God's real plan which was the elevation of the Jews as the supreme rulers of of the world, Christ as King, with all nations under the law of sacrifice and offering.