Featured Old Testament men were not saved by "looking forward to the cross"

Wrong again

 

I plan on meeting Jesus in the air.
I suspect that the event will happen post-tribulation, but I recognize that I have a high probability of being WRONG in my understanding of Daniel and Revelation. My lack of understanding does not negate the fact that all of the Saints, both those living and those that have died, will be caught up with Christ in the air.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus is the only “way” between man and God. There is no other. That requires the people of the OT to either go through Jesus or go to hell.

I agree with your conclusion that Mr. First Century Jew-on-the-Street was not thinking to himself “this lamb that I am presenting in the Temple is really just a place holder until the Messiah comes and dies as the perfect God-Man offering to effectively cleanse my sins”. However as far back as Abraham, the offering was about approaching God with the faith that the offering God asked for would somehow be enough to pay for your sin, even when common sense told you that you could never do enough to blot out the stain. The offering was never about the life of the animal, it was about the faith of the giver. The animal was always a bloody reminder that sin matters and that should have been our blood soaking into the ground.

Ultimately, it seems that there was a transfer of faith in an invisible LORD of the OT and the blood of a lamb, to the visible Lord Jesus Christ and the only blood that could accomplish what their faith had hoped for. The faith was always in the LORD.

As I said, the alternatives are

1. There was no forgiveness available in the OT
2. There exists a forgiveness without the blood of Christ.

... unless you see a third option.

 

Question relative to the salvation of the OT saints.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

Is, "before the coming of the faith," and, "the faith having come," as time relevant as BC and AD?

In all of Hebrews 11 at the beginning of the verses of, by or through faith, faith is in the dative case. To faith or unto faith; such and such took place.

Was it to and or unto the time relevant faith of Gal 3 that those of Hebrews 11 called by God acted and or did as they did?

under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ,

Exactly when did one go from being under the law to not being under the law. that is being under grace?

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

Exactly when did that take place? Did it take place for the OT saints at the same moment?

Is that moment the first cause of our eternal salvation? See Heb 5:9

 

Job 19:25

Job 19:26

 

Your right they weren't saved nor could they be with out Christ. Not even looking forward to Christ. There is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of blood..Yet they were set aside in paradise until they could here the gospel from Christ. They were the captives that Christ set free.
MB

 

NT believers aren't saved by "looking to the cross" either.

 

Soon or in another 1000 years, your Dad was right that we will be there ...

[1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV]

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

I always liked the joke that the dead rose first because they had 6 feet further to go.

I may not be able to figure out the imagery of Daniel and Revelation to understand all of the details, but I can trust in the straight talk from the Gospels and Epistles.

 

One way to be saved, under both Old and New Covenants!

 

We all know we can be saved because of the blood of Christ. Before Christ there was no sacrifice that could save . This is the whole reason Christ died for our sins. Where is that great understanding you claim to have there is nothing in scripture that even suggest the old testament saints were saved by the blood of Christ.

 

I've been thinking a lot about your explanation here.

I lump ideas into three basic piles. The first pile is ideas that I know from scripture to be just plain wrong (like "Jesus is the Archangel Michael). Your idea doesn't belong in that pile.

The second pile is for ideas that are not contradicted by scripture and have very strong support within scripture (like the Trinity). I am not yet ready to place your ideas in that pile.

The third pile is ideas that I know of nothing that proves them false, so they may be true, but I am still searching for confirmation from scripture and my conscience that they actually ARE true. (Some of the WCF and the ideas by Wesley fall into this group).

After consideration, I am intrigued enough by your position to place it in the third pile for further consideration. I particularly like how it illuminates other parts of scripture that always felt just a bit off. One example is trying to explain Jesus spending three days in hell, preaching to those in captivity, taking the keys, and leading the captives free. Your view sheds new light on those passages. Another area that it sheds light is Lazarus and the Rich man, where the image of "heaven/hell" contradicts other passages about being with God or cast into the outer darkness. Your explanation posits an actual change in the paradigm of the "afterlife" from the Cross to the Resurrection. I admit to being drawn to those sorts of biblical interrelationships.

However, just because I want it to be true, does not make it true. So I will keep my eyes open and see what God ultimately shows me.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU.

 

Perhaps not overtly, but they did know about a coming Saviour:

" And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all nations be blessed." ( Galatians 3:8 ).

" And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ." ( Luke 2:25-26 ).

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." ( John 5:46 ).


Plus, it's not like some of the details were not already prophesied:

Isaiah 53:1-12,
and this:


" For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." ( Psalms 22:14-18 ).

All one has to do is look backwards at what pieces were available in the Old Testament and see them, George.
Christ crucified was definitely hinted at.

 

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, From Heb 11:13 KJV

and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ; Gal 3:16 YLT

August 15, 2020 Has Abraham received the promises? ----- Has the seed of Abraham, Christ, received the promises? ----- What promises?

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29 KJV ----- I would say that made your Dad an heir. When did and or will he become an inheritor? ----- Of what promise?

 

This is what I believe the word states.

According to faith died these all. Here s what ---Here is what A T Robertson says, quoting Moffatt, "
In faith (κατα πιστιν — kata pistin). Here a break in the routine πιστει — pistei (by faith), “according to faith,” either for literary variety “or to suggest πιστις — pistis as the sphere and standard of their characters” (Moffatt).

These all (ουτοι παντες — houtoi pantes). Those in Hebrews 11:9-12 (Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob).

Which I understand to mean, of faith they all died. Their condition relative to God when they died. They were and are dead of the faith of God. The very reason I believe the correct translation of Mark 11:22 to be, Have faith of God. That is the condition in which they died. Dead in the faith of God.
I believe that to be true up to the time relevant of a previous post of mine. Before the coming of the faith and the faith having come. The faith of God That time relevant being, three days and three nights. The Son learning and becoming obedient unto death and the Father raising the Son out of the dead, is; the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. --- Faith
After that I believe them to be dead in Christ awaiting to receive the promises at the coming of Christ/

 

Amen .