Old Testament men were not saved by "looking forward to the cross"

[George Antonios]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!



In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

 

[Marooncat79]

Wrong again

 

[George Antonios]

Wrong again

Oh that's Ok brother, I was wrong about that also once, but that's what it's all about, learning and growing. I appreciate your teachable spirit.

 

[atpollard]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.

I plan on meeting Jesus in the air.
I suspect that the event will happen post-tribulation, but I recognize that I have a high probability of being WRONG in my understanding of Daniel and Revelation. My lack of understanding does not negate the fact that all of the Saints, both those living and those that have died, will be caught up with Christ in the air.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus is the only “way” between man and God. There is no other. That requires the people of the OT to either go through Jesus or go to hell.

I agree with your conclusion that Mr. First Century Jew-on-the-Street was not thinking to himself “this lamb that I am presenting in the Temple is really just a place holder until the Messiah comes and dies as the perfect God-Man offering to effectively cleanse my sins”. However as far back as Abraham, the offering was about approaching God with the faith that the offering God asked for would somehow be enough to pay for your sin, even when common sense told you that you could never do enough to blot out the stain. The offering was never about the life of the animal, it was about the faith of the giver. The animal was always a bloody reminder that sin matters and that should have been our blood soaking into the ground.

Ultimately, it seems that there was a transfer of faith in an invisible LORD of the OT and the blood of a lamb, to the visible Lord Jesus Christ and the only blood that could accomplish what their faith had hoped for. The faith was always in the LORD.

As I said, the alternatives are

1. There was no forgiveness available in the OT
2. There exists a forgiveness without the blood of Christ.

... unless you see a third option.

 

[George Antonios]

I plan on meeting Jesus in the air.
I suspect that the event will happen post-tribulation, but I recognize that I have a high probability of being WRONG in my understanding of Daniel and Revelation. My lack of understanding does not negate the fact that all of the Saints, both those living and those that have died, will be caught up with Christ in the air.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus is the only “way” between man and God. There is no other. That requires the people of the OT to either go through Jesus or go to hell.

I agree with your conclusion that Mr. First Century Jew-on-the-Street was not thinking to himself “this lamb that I am presenting in the Temple is really just a place holder until the Messiah comes and dies as the perfect God-Man offering to effectively cleanse my sins”. However as far back as Abraham, the offering was about approaching God with the faith that the offering God asked for would somehow be enough to pay for your sin, even when common sense told you that you could never do enough to blot out the stain. The offering was never about the life of the animal, it was about the faith of the giver. The animal was always a bloody reminder that sin matters and that should have been our blood soaking into the ground.

Ultimately, it seems that there was a transfer of faith in an invisible LORD of the OT and the blood of a lamb, to the visible Lord Jesus Christ and the only blood that could accomplish what their faith had hoped for. The faith was always in the LORD.

As I said, the alternatives are

1. There was no forgiveness available in the OT
2. There exists a forgiveness without the blood of Christ.

... unless you see a third option.

A well reasoned and scripturally based argument, and one with the tenor of which I do not disagree.
As your post itself allows, your average Joe Jew [or Shimon Jew] had no concept that the sacrifice he was presenting pictured his Messiah [some sacrifices were female, mind you]. That's a scriptural fact.
The solution is to perceive that Old Testament saints, though saved without looking forward to the cross, did not go up to heaven, but were imprisoned in the heart of the earth, across the great gulf from hell. They were captives in the "minimum security" side of the prison where they rested, were comforted, AC, TV, 3-course meals & al. They weren't in hell, but they weren't in heaven. Once Christ shed his blood, then he went down and led that captivity captive, and ascended on high.
So the technical distinction that clears it all up is that no one goes to heaven without the blood of Christ, but in the Old Testament the blood of the beasts [a figure of Christ's], was reckoned of God as a credit-card payment which justified him in sending them to Abraham's bosom rather than hell until the actual payment - this time the blood of Christ - could be made.
So: no one was ever saved in the OT by "looking forward to the cross" [that doesn't mean the crucifixion was not foreshadowed, that's a different matter] but they went to Abraham's bosom rather than heaven or hell, and waited until Christ shed his blood and delivered them.

 

[percho]

Question relative to the salvation of the OT saints.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

Is, "before the coming of the faith," and, "the faith having come," as time relevant as BC and AD?

In all of Hebrews 11 at the beginning of the verses of, by or through faith, faith is in the dative case. To faith or unto faith; such and such took place.

Was it to and or unto the time relevant faith of Gal 3 that those of Hebrews 11 called by God acted and or did as they did?

under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ,

Exactly when did one go from being under the law to not being under the law. that is being under grace?

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

Exactly when did that take place? Did it take place for the OT saints at the same moment?

Is that moment the first cause of our eternal salvation? See Heb 5:9

 

[Salty]

I plan on meeting Jesus in the air. ....

and that is what my father believed taught for many years - that is until 1993.
He has been with the Lord for 27 years now.

I think my dad was wrong.......

Yes, I believe in the imminent return of Christ
but on the other hand - it could be another thousand years.

 

[Marooncat79]

Job 19:25

Job 19:26

 

[MB]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!

View attachment 4099

In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Your right they weren't saved nor could they be with out Christ. Not even looking forward to Christ. There is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of blood..Yet they were set aside in paradise until they could here the gospel from Christ. They were the captives that Christ set free.
MB

 

[JonShaff]

NT believers aren't saved by "looking to the cross" either.

 

[atpollard]

and that is what my father believed taught for many years - that is until 1993.
He has been with the Lord for 27 years now.

I think my dad was wrong.......

Yes, I believe in the imminent return of Christ
but on the other hand - it could be another thousand years.

Soon or in another 1000 years, your Dad was right that we will be there ...

[1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV]

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

I always liked the joke that the dead rose first because they had 6 feet further to go.

I may not be able to figure out the imagery of Daniel and Revelation to understand all of the details, but I can trust in the straight talk from the Gospels and Epistles.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!

View attachment 4099

In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

One way to be saved, under both Old and New Covenants!

 

[MB]

One way to be saved, under both Old and New Covenants!

We all know we can be saved because of the blood of Christ. Before Christ there was no sacrifice that could save . This is the whole reason Christ died for our sins. Where is that great understanding you claim to have there is nothing in scripture that even suggest the old testament saints were saved by the blood of Christ.

 

[George Antonios]

One way to be saved, under both Old and New Covenants!

I took the time to lay out a scriptural case, with cross-references.
Simply repeating a mantra is not a profitable way to reply for any of us.
If anything, it indicates that there are no scriptural objections to the case as laid-out.
You're not the only one that simply replied "no".

 

[atpollard]

So the technical distinction that clears it all up is that no one goes to heaven without the blood of Christ, but in the Old Testament the blood of the beasts [a figure of Christ's], was reckoned of God as a credit-card payment which justified him in sending them to Abraham's bosom rather than hell until the actual payment - this time the blood of Christ - could be made.
So: no one was ever saved in the OT by "looking forward to the cross" [that doesn't mean the crucifixion was not foreshadowed, that's a different matter] but they went to Abraham's bosom rather than heaven or hell, and waited until Christ shed his blood and delivered them.

I've been thinking a lot about your explanation here.

I lump ideas into three basic piles. The first pile is ideas that I know from scripture to be just plain wrong (like "Jesus is the Archangel Michael). Your idea doesn't belong in that pile.

The second pile is for ideas that are not contradicted by scripture and have very strong support within scripture (like the Trinity). I am not yet ready to place your ideas in that pile.

The third pile is ideas that I know of nothing that proves them false, so they may be true, but I am still searching for confirmation from scripture and my conscience that they actually ARE true. (Some of the WCF and the ideas by Wesley fall into this group).

After consideration, I am intrigued enough by your position to place it in the third pile for further consideration. I particularly like how it illuminates other parts of scripture that always felt just a bit off. One example is trying to explain Jesus spending three days in hell, preaching to those in captivity, taking the keys, and leading the captives free. Your view sheds new light on those passages. Another area that it sheds light is Lazarus and the Rich man, where the image of "heaven/hell" contradicts other passages about being with God or cast into the outer darkness. Your explanation posits an actual change in the paradigm of the "afterlife" from the Cross to the Resurrection. I admit to being drawn to those sorts of biblical interrelationships.

However, just because I want it to be true, does not make it true. So I will keep my eyes open and see what God ultimately shows me.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU.

 

[George Antonios]

I've been thinking a lot about your explanation here.

I lump ideas into three basic piles. The first pile is ideas that I know from scripture to be just plain wrong (like "Jesus is the Archangel Michael). Your idea doesn't belong in that pile.

The second pile is for ideas that are not contradicted by scripture and have very strong support within scripture (like the Trinity). I am not yet ready to place your ideas in that pile.

The third pile is ideas that I know of nothing that proves them false, so they may be true, but I am still searching for confirmation from scripture and my conscience that they actually ARE true. (Some of the WCF and the ideas by Wesley fall into this group).

After consideration, I am intrigued enough by your position to place it in the third pile for further consideration. I particularly like how it illuminates other parts of scripture that always felt just a bit off. One example is trying to explain Jesus spending three days in hell, preaching to those in captivity, taking the keys, and leading the captives free. Your view sheds new light on those passages. Another area that it sheds light is Lazarus and the Rich man, where the image of "heaven/hell" contradicts other passages about being with God or cast into the outer darkness. Your explanation posits an actual change in the paradigm of the "afterlife" from the Cross to the Resurrection. I admit to being drawn to those sorts of biblical interrelationships.

However, just because I want it to be true, does not make it true. So I will keep my eyes open and see what God ultimately shows me.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU.

You remind me of how I felt vis-à-vis such things. They sounded so wrong to me (relative to my background) and yet so right (the scriptures were undeniable and beautifully reconciling hard passages) that I told the people showing them to me that I needed time in prayer with the Lord to see my way through. May the Lord guide you as he did me, and may he keep on guiding us into all truth yet

 

[Dave G]

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!

Perhaps not overtly, but they did know about a coming Saviour:

" And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all nations be blessed." ( Galatians 3:8 ).

" And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ." ( Luke 2:25-26 ).

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." ( John 5:46 ).


Plus, it's not like some of the details were not already prophesied:

Isaiah 53:1-12,
and this:


" For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." ( Psalms 22:14-18 ).

All one has to do is look backwards at what pieces were available in the Old Testament and see them, George.
Christ crucified was definitely hinted at.

 

[percho]

and that is what my father believed taught for many years - that is until 1993.
He has been with the Lord for 27 years now.

I think my dad was wrong.......

Yes, I believe in the imminent return of Christ
but on the other hand - it could be another thousand years.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, From Heb 11:13 KJV

and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ; Gal 3:16 YLT

August 15, 2020 Has Abraham received the promises? ----- Has the seed of Abraham, Christ, received the promises? ----- What promises?

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29 KJV ----- I would say that made your Dad an heir. When did and or will he become an inheritor? ----- Of what promise?

 

[percho]

Your right they weren't saved nor could they be with out Christ. Not even looking forward to Christ. There is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of blood..Yet they were set aside in paradise until they could here the gospel from Christ. They were the captives that Christ set free.
MB

This is what I believe the word states.

According to faith died these all. Here s what ---Here is what A T Robertson says, quoting Moffatt, "
In faith (κατα πιστιν — kata pistin). Here a break in the routine πιστει — pistei (by faith), “according to faith,” either for literary variety “or to suggest πιστις — pistis as the sphere and standard of their characters” (Moffatt).

These all (ουτοι παντες — houtoi pantes). Those in Hebrews 11:9-12 (Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob).

Which I understand to mean, of faith they all died. Their condition relative to God when they died. They were and are dead of the faith of God. The very reason I believe the correct translation of Mark 11:22 to be, Have faith of God. That is the condition in which they died. Dead in the faith of God.
I believe that to be true up to the time relevant of a previous post of mine. Before the coming of the faith and the faith having come. The faith of God That time relevant being, three days and three nights. The Son learning and becoming obedient unto death and the Father raising the Son out of the dead, is; the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. --- Faith
After that I believe them to be dead in Christ awaiting to receive the promises at the coming of Christ/

 

[Barry Johnson]

That is, if you let the scriptures speak for themselves. And I don't blame you if you have a hard time with that because it took me about 1-2 years to process and de-program.
Paul wrote:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul laid out the gospel in: 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Most Christians, including teachers, believe that Old Testament men were saved by looking forward to the cross, just as New Testament men are saved by looking backward to the cross. It’s a catchy statement and sounds reasonable, but was the average righteous Jew looking forward to a Messiah that would die in his place? Let’s take some Jews who were far above the average righteous Jew as a case study.

The apostles, though sinners and imperfect, were chosen of Christ for a reason:
· They were seeking God.
· They had submitted themselves to John’s baptism and some if not all were his disciples.
· They knew and believed the scriptures more than the average Jew: Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
· They therefore readily believed on Christ by divine revelation, as for example Nathaniel and Peter: Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
· They had also left all and followed him and continued with him in his temptations.
· They were chosen out of a multitude, out of 500, and out of 70, to be charged as apostles with special powers. That implies faithfulness (1Ti.1:12), especially as Christ hand-picked them after all-night prayer (Lk.6:12-13).
· They were promised 12 thrones judging Israel.
· They are of the 24 elders around the throne in heaven.
· Their names are in the 12 foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem.
So if anyone was saved by looking forward to the cross in the Old Testament, it was them!

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In Luke 9:45 and 18:31-33, Jesus Christ spoon-feeds the apostles what is in effect, the gospel as laid out by Paul, and yet the Holy Ghost tells us that they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not (Luke 9:45) and that this saying was hid from them (Luke 18:34). God’s hand-picked front-line Green-berets had no idea what in the world Christ was talking about. Do you suppose the average scripture-believing Jew had a better idea than the apostles? Of course not. Worse than that still, to claim that Old Testament salvation was by the same gospel as that laid out by Paul is to be forced to concede that the apostles were still lost and blinded by Satan at the very eve of the crucifixion, according to Paul's words (2C0.4:3-4) since Luke twice says that the gospel was hid unto the apostles. Read the rest of the verses in the table which repeatedly communicate that the apostles had no idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They understood the gospel of the kingdom, but not of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In the very chapter where the Father reveals the Son unto Peter, Peter hinders the gospel!
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Neither Peter, nor the other apostles, nor anyone else in Jerusalem, Judaea, or Israel, was ever looking forward to an atoning death of their Messiah – which is exactly why they crucified him, because they did not believe that the Messiah was supposed to die!
John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Amen .