Old Testament men were not saved by "looking forward to the cross"

[Dave G]

@George Antonios

However, this thread is not about that ( and we've already discussed them at length ), it is about men either looking forward or backward to Christ's death on the cross for salvation;
To which I both agree and disagree.

As I see it, men look to the Lord for salvation, which is true.
But then there's God's perspective and His work, which are the basis for how and why men even bother to look to Christ at all...
Since the Bible so clearly states that we as men hate Him and will not come to the light lest our deeds should be reproved ( John 3:19-20 ).

So, without election leading to the new birth, we're reduced to men deciding for ourselves whether or not to accept or reject Christ and we are saved and given the new birth on the basis of that alone.
But that does not address or even consider what the Scriptures have to say about what's behind that acceptance or rejection:

God's decision to save one and not another, to make vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy ( Romans 9 ).

In other words, Scripture has quite a bit to say about how and why the Lord saves, and what His basis is for that salvation actually is...
His desire to take out of the nations a people for His namesake and in accordance with His desire to show His grace and mercy, and to reserve the rest to everlasting punishment in His justice and wrath for their sins against Him.

I'm sorry that you do not seem to agree with these statements, but there are those of us on this forum who have tried to explain why we believe as we do, and you continue to disagree with our usage of the Scriptures;
In the end, we see that the gift of eternal life is not only a special one, but one in which we really had no idea was coming.
We also see that men both look to Christ for our salvation from His wrath, but we also know that that salvation is not only from something, but to something and someone.

This was revealed in the Scriptures to Moses ( Exodus 33:19 and others ), David ( Psalms 65:4 and others ) and men like Abraham.
But the doctrine of election was not completely revealed until the Lord had Paul address the churches in the epistles.


This will be my last reply in this thread.

I wish you well George, and may God bless you with His goodness;
Because that is my sincere desire to all who read this.

 

[George Antonios]

Acts 2: 29-31
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

David knew, and was well aware that his resurrection would happen before the body would decay.

That was covered in the OP. That same Peter also said:

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The prophets did not understand what the Spirit was saying through them concerning the sufferings of Christ.
The OP must still be dealt with.

 

[George Antonios]

So, without election leading to the new birth, we're reduced to men deciding for ourselves whether or not to accept or reject Christ and we are saved and given the new birth on the basis of that alone.

And that's how the Calvinistic gnostic philosophical paradigm reduces all things to conform to its system and seals off any dissonant scriptural revelation.

 

[Van]

So, without election leading to the new birth, we're reduced to men deciding for ourselves whether or not to accept or reject Christ and we are saved and given the new birth on the basis of that alone.

On and on the same bogus claims are made, while ignoring the rebuttals. Does salvation depend on the person "deciding for ourselves whether to accept or reject Christ?" Romans 9:16 says it does not. Salvation depends on God alone. So the above is a material false statement concerning the views of some who oppose Calvinism. What is the basis of our election for salvation?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says "faith in the truth." So if God credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, then God chooses us and places (baptizes, transfers, puts) us into Christ where we are made alive together with Christ.

1) Calvinists say the above is not truth because "no one seeks God." IOW, they seal off "any dissonant scriptural revelation" such as Matthew 23:13 where people are seeking God - actually in the process of entering the kingdom.

2) Calvinists say the above is not truth because "the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit." But again, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 indicates men of flesh can understand spiritual milk (the gospel).

Is anyone transferred into Christ based on their faith without first being "drawn" by the Father? Nope, so salvation is not based on us alone, but on us being drawn and learning from the Father. John 6:44-45. I could go on but why.

 

[Yeshua1]

I took the time to lay out a scriptural case, with cross-references.
Simply repeating a mantra is not a profitable way to reply for any of us.
If anything, it indicates that there are no scriptural objections to the case as laid-out.
You're not the only one that simply replied "no".

The very basis of God able to save any lost sinners would be that Jesus death on the Cross was an atonement for them!No sinner in the OT ever saved by keeping the law....

 

[Calminian]

I never said that. I said they weren't looking forward to a Messiah that would die.

They knew Messiah was coning and would defeat our adversary. They didn't know the details of how all this would play out. They looked forward to what the Cross accomplished, but didn't understand the Cross itself as we do. In that sense, they looked forward to the Cross.

 

[Calminian]

...No sinner in the OT ever saved by keeping the law....

Amen. All are saved by the Cross.

 

[Aaron]

Would you say we have a complete bible .,including things hidden before that are revealed later by Paul for example ?Of course not to mention before and after the cross differences . Col.1.26, Rom 16 .25,26 . luke 4.21 . Mat 13.35 .Col 2.14- ..
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

And they found the Cross in the OT. What God said, and what God meant didn't change. What mattered was belief despite one's level of comprehension, like Abraham's offering of his son, Isaac. He believed, even though he didn't understand.

 

[percho]

By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Hebrews 11:31,32

but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:22-26 YLT

for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. Romans 5:19 YLT

Romans, constituted righteous through the obedience of one, Galatians, declared righteous, out of faith.

What is the relationship of, the obedience of one to out of faith that has been revealed, that they had been shut up unto?

Before the coming of, the faith V 23. The faith, having come V 25 Did the obedience of one manifest faith?

Will Samson be declared righteous because of the faith of Christ or because of the faith of Samson?
Will Samson be born again as a son of God by the Spirit of God?
Is, the promise, above in V 22 the promise of the Spirit see Gal 3:14

 

[Barry Johnson]

And they found the Cross in the OT. What God said, and what God meant didn't change. What mattered was belief despite one's level of comprehension, like Abraham's offering of his son, Isaac. He believed, even though he didn't understand.

I agree that it was by Faith . But in what ? Abraham believed God was able to raise his son from the dead . Then we look at the ' Hall of faith in Heb 11 . We cannot be saved today by believing what they obeyed and believed.
Rom 16 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
The good news we believe and understand to be saved is specifically 1cor 15 .1-4 surely ,unless one believes in vain .

 

[Yeshua1]

They knew Messiah was coning and would defeat our adversary. They didn't know the details of how all this would play out. They looked forward to what the Cross accomplished, but didn't understand the Cross itself as we do. In that sense, they looked forward to the Cross.

They knew God had promised to them a coming Messiah, and believed in that!

 

[percho]

I agree that it was by Faith . But in what ? Abraham believed God was able to raise his son from the dead . Then we look at the ' Hall of faith in Heb 11 . We cannot be saved today by believing what they obeyed and believed.
Rom 16 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
The good news we believe and understand to be saved is specifically 1cor 15 .1-4 surely ,unless one believes in vain .

I think Abraham did understand. But here is what he understood. He, Abraham was going to have a seed in which all the nations of the earth were going to be blessed and that seed was going to come through his seed of his old age, Isaac.

He understood that if God told him to kill Isaac in order for him to have seed in which all the nations of the earth were to be blessed then there must be a resurrection from the dead.

Therefore in reality Abraham saw the resurrection of Christ. God stopped him from killing Isaac and Isaac later died and is still dead in faith.

What faith? What is, the faith, we understand? What is, the belief, a noun, of us? You nailed it. 1 Cor 15:3,4

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That is the faith by which salvation was wrought for us, whether we believe it or not.
Heb 5:7 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,
Heb 5:8 YLT through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
Phil 2:8 YLT and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,

That is, obedience of faith.

Phil 2:9 YLT wherefore, (Because of obedience of faith) also, God did highly exalt (Raised him out of the dead) him, and gave to him a name <See Heb 1:4,5) that is above every name,
1 Cor 15:17 YLT and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

There would been no faith for there would have been no obedience.

 

[George Antonios]

It's amazing how sure of themselves a bunch of church-age Gentiles can be that men were saved by looking forward to the cross in the O.T., when the Hebrew scriptures themselves state otherwise, and when the apostles themselves couldn't see it, nay opposed it [see O.P., which has yet to be addressed], even when the Lord spoon-fed them the coming cross, and when the masses themselves declared that Messiah must live forever and cannot die (Jn.12:34).

But who cares about the testimony of actual Old Testament Jews when discussing what Old Testament Jews believed, right?!

 

[Yeshua1]

It's amazing how sure of themselves a bunch of church-age Gentiles can be that men were saved by looking forward to the cross in the O.T., when the Hebrew scriptures themselves state otherwise, and when the apostles themselves couldn't see it, nay opposed it [see O.P., which has yet to be addressed], even when the Lord spoon-fed them the coming cross, and when the masses themselves declared that Messiah must live forever and cannot die (Jn.12:34).

But who cares about the testimony of actual Old Testament Jews when discussing what Old Testament Jews believed, right?!

Where did God ever save any lost sinners apart from the Grace of the Cross of Christ?

 

[George Antonios]

Where did God ever save any lost sinners apart from the Grace of the Cross of Christ?

Keeping in mind that, by definition, there was no cross in the Old Testament, and that the scriptures never says that men were saved by "looking forward to the cross" [and no verse has yet been supplied to the contrary and the OP has still not been dealt with], consider:

People quote Galatians 3:11 and ignore Galatians 3:12:

Gal 3:12 And the law is NOT of faith: BUT, The man that DOETH them shall live in them.

Note the contradistinction Paul is pointing out. And again:

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 BUT the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

Again, the contradistinction Paul is pointing out.

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And what about?

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

THEN

Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.

Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

THEN

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
Eze 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
Eze 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
Eze 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

The word soul or souls shows up 6 times in this chapter:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

It is the soul that lives or die. God did not say “the flesh”, or “the man”, or “the body”.

To be just, we must point-out that in the O.T., the soul and the body were fused, so that the death of a soul of a living man was also the death of his body. But it was nevertheless a death of the soul as well. This is not the threat of bodily death only, it is the threat of soulish death as well. This is confirmed by the fact that Ezekiel said that that soul would die in his sin (3:20, 24; 18:24) and in his iniquity (3:18, 19; 18:18, 26) and in his trespass (18:24), and Paul described lost souls as dead in trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1).

If God had been addressing the Jews concerning physical death and life exclusively, why did he conclude the chapter with make you a new heart and a new spirit (v.31)?! Those are expressions of salvation of one’s soul, not body, as he had been saying all along. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of dying in one’s sins as a damnation of the soul (John 8:21, 24). There it is a result of unbelief, but here it is a result of works. A total of 17 works [including hath taken off his hand from the poor (v.17)] are listed in the passage and they are called duties in v.11.

No one can argue that in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live (v.22) is exclusively a reference to a long and good physical life on earth and not a reference to salvation: Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Christ’s words thou shalt live (v.28) is a direct answer concerning obtaining eternal life (v.25); and that’s the salvation of one’s soul! Christ himself told the lawyer that his obtaining eternal life was dependent on what the lawyer would do (v.28)!

Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 18:22 and is a quasi-replica of Leviticus 18:5 and Paul takes Leviticus 18:5 – and therefore Ezekiel 18:22 – as a doctrine to be set in opposition to New Testament salvation by faith! You’ve seen how Ezekiel 18 opposes Pauline doctrine, but note how it matches Jacobine doctrine in James 2:
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. […]

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [NOW LOOK AT EZEKIEL 18:7 ABOVE FOR THE CROSS-REFERENCE.]

Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? […]

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot JUSTIFIED by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

And yes, I know all the "tricks" to make James 2 fit Romans like the back of my hand.
But they're not an honest dealing with the text. The text says that works are part of our justification and the context is before God unto salvation, not men unto honour [no one saw Abraham offer up Isaac!]. But of course, the doctrinal context of James is tribulational, not church-age doctrine.

The problem is that you have a bunch of Gentiles who learned the church age truth that salvation is NOW (Rom.3:21!) become by grace through faith, and have applied that doctrine all over the book, despite the words of the book. And they refuse dispensational divisions of the book, in disobedience to the commandment to divide the book.
So when they hit dissonant passages which don't fit our present-truth, and we refuse to let the book speak for itself, we find creative ways to get around the uncomfortable truth that under the law, men were saved by works, like MOSES, AND EZEKIEL, AND CHRIST, AND PAUL, AND JAMES TOLD YOU.
Only they did not go to heaven because the blood of beasts cannot justify.
So they were imprisoned underground and awaited the shed blood of the Christ to get them out of the heart of the earth and into heaven.
I'm a Baptist, and I don't care if that's not Baptist doctrine, it's Bible.

I know it's hard to swallow, it was hard for me. But the verses cannot otherwise honestly be dealt with. Don't try to wrest the scriptures to fit what you know, like I was doing, just let them speak as they fall.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul stated that no one shall ever been justified by doing works of the Law, as none save Jesus can do them in a pleasing way to merit salvation from and by a Holy God!

 

[MB]

Paul stated that no one shall ever been justified by doing works of the Law, as none save Jesus can do them in a pleasing way to merit salvation from and by a Holy God!

Ttypical Calvinism. Just take half a verse from some where and add your own ideas.
MB

 

[George Antonios]

Paul stated that no one shall ever been justified by doing works of the Law, as none save Jesus can do them in a pleasing way to merit salvation from and by a Holy God!

Of course, but Paul placed qualifiers on that:

He said that that was NOW the case, AFTER the cross, NOT before. He repeatedly clarifies that. See previous post. That was now the case because before, men did not go to heaven, only to Abraham's bosom, while they waited for the blood of the Lamb to be shed. However, after the cross, to enter heaven (as opposed to the underground prison that is Abraham's bosom) the standard required became absolute sinlessness, a standard which is higher than the Old Testament law, and one which can never be attained by works - hence the fact that now justification, with a view of going to heaven, was only based on faith and NO MORE of works, whereas it was of works under the law of Moses, which was not a law that required absolute perfection, as God now requires, since the righteous dead did not go to heaven anyway but would remain captives in the heart of the earth.
i.e.
Old Testament = lesser destination (Abraham's bosom) = lesser standard required
New Testament = greater destination (heaven) = greater standard required

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course, but Paul placed qualifiers on that:

He said that that was NOW the case, AFTER the cross, NOT before. He repeatedly clarifies that. See previous post. That was now the case because before, men did not go to heaven, only to Abraham's bosom, while they waited for the blood of the Lamb to be shed. However, after the cross, to enter heaven (as opposed to the underground prison that is Abraham's bosom) the standard required became absolute sinlessness, a standard which is higher than the Old Testament law, and one which can never be attained by works - hence the fact that now justification, with a view of going to heaven, was only based on faith and NO MORE of works, whereas it was of works under the law of Moses, which was not a law that required absolute perfection, as God now requires, since the righteous dead did not go to heaven anyway but would remain captives in the heart of the earth.
i.e.
Old Testament = lesser destination (Abraham's bosom) = lesser standard required
New Testament = greater destination (heaven) = greater standard required

God has the same standard to save any sinner, absolute keeping of His Moral Law!

 

[Yeshua1]

Ttypical Calvinism. Just take half a verse from some where and add your own ideas.
MB

Well. Paul was the chief calvinist!