Omniscience

[jbh28]

Of course all Calvinists believe God in eternity knew everything imaginable. Some say God did not know what He would decree before He decreed it, but others, claiming a detailed knowledge of both the workings of God's mind and the absence of sequence in eternity, say God knew and therefore could not decide to decree anything other than what His foreknowledge predestined.

Naturally God causes everything, exhaustive determinism, because foreknowledge presupposes fore ordination.

What Calvinism cannot deal with is that their view of Omniscience makes God into a Monster, causing people to sin because the sin is foreknown and therefore foreordained, and then punishing the person for doing what God compelled them by predestination to do.

They have no answer, they just say "we do not believe that" and "that is a false choice" and other feeble attempts to hold two mutually exclusive views at the same time. Calvinism's dirty little secret is that is is a logical impossibility. So they hide the problem with mumbo jumbo, such as people choosing to do what God has foreordained they do still makes them responsible.

Van presents a false dichotomy. He has been given an answer but continues to say this garbage.

 

[jbh28]

You see I don't believe God allows sin. If He did the allowance would be with out consequince to those who comit sin. I believe that while it may seem to be that God does allow it to happen. We are mistaking His patience to ward us as an allowance to sin.

Hi MB. So why does sin happen? If God doesn't allow it, and it happens, then does that mean God was unable to stop it? Or, did God not know it would happen?

 

[MB]

I just have a question.

Has God ever made a choice between two options? For example, the choice (election) to save you or pass over you. Or, the choice to create this world or not?

Yes or No

Good question; It seems Hyper-Calvinism would prevent God from a choice, He being incapable of a new thought, He didn't know about previously.
MB

 

[freeatlast]

I see you voted no, so what events do you think God doesn't know about yet? Or does He know today but in the past didn't know.

Let me start out by saying this. We know that Jesus did not know everything as He says He did not and we claim He is 100% God. There was things that the Father had not shared with the Son. Now I realize that this does not prove God does not know every single event in all eternity before it happens, but it is something to consider as we try and explain the un-explainable.

I have asked this question before and I get no answers. If God knows every event in all eternity before it happens then how is He knowing? Is He looking down through eternity and seeing it or is He ordaining it? Now I realize that the question is a little unfair as there may be a third factor that we do not know about. However with what we have how does He know based on the question?

This is like saying that all things are possible with God and scripture say they are. So this is true, but it is also not true. There are things He cannot do.
Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

So to hold that God knows all things I believe is an accurate statement even if He does not know every single event that will ever happen in all eternity. He knows all that is knowable but even that which has not knowable is subject to Him and His purpose.

So let me ask again how does He know? Does He look down through eternity or is He preordaining every single event including sin and we are just acting out what He has ordained? Are we saying that God ordains things He does not want to happen or things against His will? How does He know all eternity?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Do you believe that God has always (eternally) known all there is to know about everything?

Very simple question.

BTW, God cannot have always been ALL knowing and the answer be anything less than yes.

Yes. God is onmiscient.

Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I just have a question.

Has God ever made a choice between two options? For example, the choice (election) to save you or pass over you. Or, the choice to create this world or not?

Yes or No

I think that’s a very good question! I think the answer lies in the perspective we are looking at---it would seem from the human side it appears that God choose between two options, but from God’s side He already knew what choice He was going to make—so there really were not two options---but this is an area of theology that I try to be open about & consider both sides of the argument, & as long as God’s omniscience is not sacrificed at the alter of human reason—I’m willing to listen & consider other opinions —so how would you answer the question skan?

 

[jbh28]

Let me start out by saying this. We know that Jesus did not know everything as He says He did not and we claim He is 100% God. There was things that the Father had not shared with the Son. Now I realize that this does not prove God does not know every single event in all eternity before it happens, but it is something to consider as we try and explain the un-explainable.

understand. I always point to Phil. 2:8-9

I have asked this question before and I get no answers. If God knows every event in all eternity before it happens then how is He knowing? Is He looking down through eternity and seeing it or is He ordaining it? Now I realize that the question is a little unfair as there may be a third factor that we do not know about. However with what we have how does He know based on the question?

Well for the sake of the OP, either one would yield the same result of God knowing everything. I've answered this before, but I would love to see a thread stay on the op.

This is like saying that all things are possible with God and scripture say they are. So this is true, but it is also not true. There are things He cannot do.
Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Agree, but the Bible says that God does know everything and it doesn't say there are things that God doesn't know.

So to hold that God knows all things I believe is an accurate statement even if He does not know every single event that will ever happen in all eternity. He knows all that is knowable but even that which has not knowable is subject to Him and His purpose.

Nice play on words. If God knows "all that is knowable" then he doesn't know all. What things would you say that God doesn't know. Does he know all the sins that will happen today?

So let me ask again how does He know? Does He look down through eternity or is He preordaining every single event including sin and we are just acting out what He has ordained? Are we saying that God ordains things He does not want to happen or things against His will?

Not relevant to the discussion of if he knows.

 

[freeatlast]

Yes. God is onmiscient.

Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

That passage is both miss-leading and translted not the best.


Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

How do those passages prove that God knows every event in all history?
Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.

We can't number the stars but we know they are not infinate.


1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

That passage is both miss-leading and translted not the best.

Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.


Certainly, but He does not declair every event. Every event will serve His purpose, but not because it was individually declared. The beginning and end has been declared, and all in between will serve what has been declared even if it all in between has not been declared.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether

That is still present tense. He knows our thoughts.

 

[freeatlast]

understand. I always point to Phil. 2:8-9
Well for the sake of the OP, either one would yield the same result of God knowing everything. I've answered this before, but I would love to see a thread stay on the op.
Agree, but the Bible says that God does know everything and it doesn't say there are things that God doesn't know.
Nice play on words. If God knows "all that is knowable" then he doesn't know all. What things would you say that God doesn't know. Does he know all the sins that will happen today?
Not relevant to the discussion of if he knows.

If you cannot answer me then I cannot answer you.

 

[Van]

Thank you for posting actual support, for Omniscience!

Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.


This says God's understanding (cognitive knowledge) is beyond measure. Since nothing is beyond the measure of God, what this says is His knowledge is beyond what we can measure, way bigger than we can comprehend. It provides no specifics. So no support for God knows everything we can imagine. To make that claim requires an assumption not found in scripture.

1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
This says God knows everything. But everything about everything or everything about our hearts? Contextually it says God knows everything about our hearts, nothing is hidden.


Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

This passage actually supports my view of Omniscience, God knows what He declares and predestines.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

This supports the idea that God can know our hearts, our core attributes and attitudes, He knows what we will say before we say them. But this does not say God knows what we will say before we have been created.

Bottom line : none of the verses support the Calvinist view of Omniscience.

 

[MB]

Hi MB. So why does sin happen? If God doesn't allow it, and it happens, then does that mean God was unable to stop it? Or, did God not know it would happen?

Sin happens because of man's freewill to commit sin. It can't be allowed or tolerated if there are consequences. Toleration and allowance would condone sin. As I see it God knew there would be sin hence the rule of Law. Sin is the Law's by-product. In other words the Law created sin not God. It wasn't something God didn't know about, but was used to give men freedom of choice to sin or, not. All men sin because, it's what men choose to do. That includes all of us. Only with the help of God can we over come sin. Yet as long as we are in this flesh we still have the same propensity to sin. It dwells in our flesh.

The reason sin happens is the desire to over come it's consequence. You tell someone not to do something. Sooner or later they are over come by there own curiosity and they do it anyway. The first sin happened because of Eve's curiosity of what it would be like to be like God. Since Satan had deceived her in to thinking that the eating of that fruit would make her like God. Of course it didn't but it did open her eyes to good and evil.

MB

 

[jbh28]

Sin happens because of man's freewill to commit sin. It can't be allowed or tolerated if there are consequences. Toleration and allowance would condone sin.

Did God know the sin would happen? Yes
Could God have stopped the sin? Yes
God allowed it to take place. It doesn't mean he wanted man to sin, but that he allowed it to take place by not stopping man from sinning.


Yes, the reason sin happens is because of man. He is the author of his own sin. God knows all and even knows all sins that will happen

 

[freeatlast]

Did God know the sin would happen? Yes
Could God have stopped the sin? Yes
God allowed it to take place. It doesn't mean he wanted man to sin, but that he allowed it to take place by not stopping man from sinning.


Yes, the reason sin happens is because of man. He is the author of his own sin. God knows all and even knows all sins that will happen

If God knew everything before he created it then why was He repentant that He ever created man? In other words if there was no other possible outcome and God knew it why be repented when it happens?
Gen 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

 

[Skandelon]

I think that’s a very good question! I think the answer lies in the perspective we are looking at---it would seem from the human side it appears that God choose between two options, but from God’s side He already knew what choice He was going to make—so there really were not two options---but this is an area of theology that I try to be open about & consider both sides of the argument, & as long as God’s omniscience is not sacrificed at the alter of human reason—I’m willing to listen & consider other opinions —so how would you answer the question skan?

I don't know. I've always appealed to mystery (and been ridiculed for it) when it comes to infinite divine attributes of God as they relate to time and space interactions with mankind. I don't believe such things are subject to finite reasoning and we might as well be attempting to make leap to Neptune as to understand such things.

But, since you are being objective in your reply, I know you see the difficulty of this question. If God does choose between two options that presumes that he didn't know before he made the choice which would limit our view of exhaustive foreknowledge as it relates to God. If however, he always knew and never made a choice then why does scripture say he made a choice (elected) before the foundation of the world? And it also brings into question the freedom of God, because it doesn't allow for the possibility of his not creating the earth, making the creation necessary. If the creation is necessary, is God somehow dependent or in need of that which He creates and not all self sufficient?

I think an appeal to mystery is required because speculation on these matters become the foundation for false doctrines.

 

[MB]

Did God know the sin would happen? Yes
Could God have stopped the sin? Yes
God allowed it to take place. It doesn't mean he wanted man to sin, but that he allowed it to take place by not stopping man from sinning.


Yes, the reason sin happens is because of man. He is the author of his own sin. God knows all and even knows all sins that will happen

If I sin that doesn't mean God allowed it to happen. This is a problem with hyper-Calvinism. You seem to believe God is in control of who sins and who doesn't. Making Him have a part in everyones sin. You refuse to see that the consequence is used as the preventive measure. No where does scripture ever say God allows sin, nor does it even suggest it. Instead it warns of the consequences. If God were in control of who sins and who doesn't there would be no sin.
MB

 

[revmwc]

This may be nothing more than choice of words but if you meant that God allow things to happen. Does that include sin.

You see I don't believe God allows sin. If He did the allowance would be with out consequince to those who comit sin. I believe that while it may seem to be that God does allow it to happen. We are mistaking His patience to ward us as an allowance to sin.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
MB

Did God allow or cause Lucifer to become prideful? God allowed it and that pride was sin.
Did God command Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then Adam told Eve? Yes that happened. Did God allow Adam and Eve to make a choice to eat or not to eat, but told them there would be consciquences for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yes God allowed them volition to pick and choose. Did God cause them to sin no, did God want them to sin no, did God know what they would do before they did it yes. Which means He could have stopped them had He wanted to but it was in His plan for man, as was sending Christ to pay for all mankinds sin. When Christ took our sin upon Himself the issue became one of a Son issue, do have you placed your faith in Him for salvation or have you not? Those who end up seperated from God for eternity made that choice, they chose to reject Christ after hearing the Gospel. God did not interfere with their volition since volition is one of the Divine institution that man has.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

How do those passages prove that God knows every event in all history?
Psalm 147:5 ESV
5 Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure.

We can't number the stars but we know they are not infinate.

For something to truely be beyond measure it must be infinite. That's why the Holy Spirit inspired what he inspired to be written here to communicate God's omniscience.

1 John 3:19-20 ESV
19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

That passage is both miss-leading and translted not the best.

20 Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
oti ean kataginwskh hmwn h kardia oti meizwn estin o qeoV thV kardiaV hmwn kai ginwskei panta

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
oti ean kataginwskh hmwn h kardia oti meizwn estin o qeoV thV kardiaV hmwn kai ginwskei panta


Byzantine Majority
oti ean kataginwskh hmwn h kardia oti meizwn estin o qeoV thV kardiaV hmwn kai ginwskei panta


Alexandrian
oti ean kataginwskh hmwn h kardia oti meizwn estin o qeoV thV kardiaV hmwn kai ginwskei panta


Hort and Westcott
oti ean kataginwskh hmwn h kardia oti meizwn estin o qeoV thV kardiaV hmwn kai ginwskei panta


Latin Vulgate
3:20 quoniam si reprehenderit nos cor maior est Deus corde nostro et novit omnia


King James Version
3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


American Standard Version
3:20 because if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


Bible in Basic English
3:20 When our heart says that we have done wrong; because God is greater than our heart, and has knowledge of all things.


Darby's English Translation
3:20 that if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things.


Douay Rheims
3:20 For if our heart reprehend us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


Noah Webster Bible
3:20 For if our heart condemneth us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


Weymouth New Testament
3:20 in whatever matters our hearts condemn us--because God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.


World English Bible
3:20 because if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.


Young's Literal Translation
3:20 because if our heart may condemn -- because greater is God than our heart, and He doth know all things.

Link: http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B62C003.htm#V20

I believe that it has indeed been translated correctly. God's word is true. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Isaiah 46:9-11 ESV
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.


Certainly, but He does not declair every event. Every event will serve His purpose, but not because it was individually declared. The beginning and end has been declared, and all in between will serve what has been declared even if it all in between has not been declared.

He says he declared the end from the beginning. That involves knowing everything that happens in between or it is not possible to declare the end from the beginning.

In other words he has decreed whatsoever shall come to pass.

Psalm 139:4 ESV
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether

That is still present tense. He knows our thoughts.

This proves that God doesn't learn from man because he knows what they are going to say and do before it ever happens. As we know, it is because he is omnicient and has declared the end from the beginning.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I don't know. I've always appealed to mystery (and been ridiculed for it) when it comes to infinite divine attributes of God as they relate to time and space interactions with mankind. I don't believe such things are subject to finite reasoning and we might as well be attempting to make leap to Neptune as to understand such things.

But, since you are being objective in your reply, I know you see the difficulty of this question. If God does choose between two options that presumes that he didn't know before he made the choice which would limit our view of exhaustive foreknowledge as it relates to God. If however, he always knew and never made a choice then why does scripture say he made a choice (elected) before the foundation of the world? And it also brings into question the freedom of God, because it doesn't allow for the possibility of his not creating the earth, making the creation necessary. If the creation is necessary, is God somehow dependent or in need of that which He creates and not all self sufficient?

I think an appeal to mystery is required because speculation on these matters become the foundation for false doctrines.

I can honestly say—I have no problem what so ever with that response---hmmm—so does that mean I’m less Reformed than I think I am, or---are you more reformed than you think you are?---lol---I’ll go with choice “c” ---we both understand the reality of mystery when it comes to truly understanding all there is to know about God!

 

[Skandelon]

I can honestly say—I have no problem what so ever with that response---hmmm—so does that mean I’m less Reformed than I think I am, or---are you more reformed than you think you are?---lol---I’ll go with choice “c” ---we both understand the reality of mystery when it comes to truly understanding all there is to know about God!

I'll go with "c" too.

Thanks for being a reasonable and objective believer! Seem to be very rare in this parts. :thumbsup:

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I'll go with "c" too.

Thanks for being a reasonable and objective believer! Seem to be very rare in this parts. :thumbsup:

Maybe you are both amyraldian?

http://www.theopedia.com/Amyraldism

They are commonly referred to a 4 pointers.