Once saved always saved

[steaver]

I have. Let me put into a few words what I have already put into many. ETERNAL IS ETERNAL IS ETERNAL! If John Doe makes a shipwreck of his faith eternal is still eternal, just not for him

Not all.

Here they are again...

Do you have eternal life or some other kind of life? Do you have eternal salvation or some other kind of salvation? Have you been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb that is eternal redemption or some other kind of redemption?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Put it this way padredurand. If your answer is "yes I have eternal salvation or eternal life" then I ask...How can it cease? Anything that can cease to exist cannot be called eternal!

This is why once you have been saved, you can never be unsaved! It is eternal life that is given at conversion!

Hebrews 6&10 and all the "others" can have alternative interpretations. Eternal life cannot. It has only one...OSAS!

God Bless!

 

[padredurand]

Do you have eternal life or some other kind of life? Do you have eternal salvation or some other kind of salvation? Have you been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb that is eternal redemption or some other kind of redemption?

Is this the question I've been dodging? You've asked it of others. This is first time for me. This I will gladly answer with confidence.

I have walked the Roman Road, I have rivaled Paul for the title "chief sinner", I have confessed my sin with the confidence that, "He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."( I John 1:9)

and I abide in Him and He in me.


1 John 3:23-24
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Let me restate my earlier post: Man affects neither His promises nor His attributes. If a man abandons his faith and "tramples under foot the Son of God; God is unchanged, the Cross still atones, Jesus is still seated at the right hand, He still sanctifies, and eternity is unchanged except for the one who has fallen away. Let me restate that for clarification... except for the one who consciously, cognitively, and with all heart and sincerity says, "I recant and disavow my confession."

We may not agree on OSAS but, "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

 

[MIZ83]

Hi Steaver,
I do not agree that your position on Hebrews 6 & 10 is plausible, but I will defer follow-up on those passages until later. You have been pressing for an answer to one of your arguments. I gave you an answer on 1 Thes 5:23-24. Now I will answer your argument in which you use various verses using the term eternal life.
Yes, eternal life is eternal. But that is not the question. The question is how we participate in that life. Is eternal life something that we possess independently which can never be forfeited? That appears to be the assumption which you have made.
You quoted 1Jo. 5:11 & 1Jo. 5:13, but not verse 12. Here is that passage:

NAS 1 John 5:11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

What you have failed to realize, apparently, is that eternal life is not an independently held possession. Rather, it is something we have in union with the Son. Yes, God has given us eternal life, but John immediately goes on to say that this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. Yes, eternal life is eternal, but it is only possessed by us if we remain in Christ, for eternal life finds its source in “Christ, who is our life”. Col 3:4

The problem with your position is that all do not abide in Christ.

NAS Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


First, let me point out that this is no mere hypothetical. There is no if hinted at. This was the actual situation of some of the Galatians.

Secondly, Paul is speaking to Christians, for you can’t fall from somewhere you’ve never been; you can’t be severed from something of which you were never a part. He is addressing those who had been in grace and who had been members of Christ. Obviously, Paul thought that they had not remained in Christ, however. They had been severed from Him. Paul’s desire is that they might be restored to Him. Their state when he wrote, however, was that they were fallen and severed.

Jesus also gave a teaching with implications for our current subject.

NAS John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus is the vine. We who are in Christ are the branches. We are told by Jesus to Abide in Me, and I in you. It is obvious from the parable that He is the source of life, for if we do not abide in Him we will be thrown away as a branch, dry up, be gathered up, cast into the fire, and burned. The vine is the source of life. A branch has no life apart from the vine. Yes, eternal life is eternal, but we do not share in it if we do not remain in Christ, who is our life.

Yes, Steaver, when we are in Christ we possess eternal life, but it will not be fully realized unless we remain in Christ. There are a number of passages which indicate that, but, alas, you do not quote them. But I will.

Spoken to his disciples, Jesus said…

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Speaking to disciples, Jesus said…

NAS Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, shall receive many times as much, and shall inherit eternal life. 30 "But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

In the passage above, Jesus spoke of eternal life as a future inheritance. Here are a few more passages:

NAS John 12:25 "He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal.

NAS Romans 2:6 who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

NAS Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life.

NAS 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

NAS Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Steaver, in your arguments to support OSAS from the term eternal life, you appeal only to some of the relevant Scriptures and to your human logic without considering all the Scriptures have to say about eternal life. While we have eternal life in this life, we possess it only as we remain in union with Christ. Ultimately, eternal life will be realized in the judgment.

My prayer is that we each take hold of eternal life. May we each keep ourselves in the love of God waiting for the mercy of our Lord to eternal life!

Blessings,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Thanks padredurand, I take your response as a "yes, I have eternal life".

You then say...

Let me restate that for clarification... except for the one who consciously, cognitively, and with all heart and sincerity says, "I recant and disavow my confession."

If this is true, then that persron did not have eternal life for anything eternal cannot end. Your position is contradictive.

The best you could say is that you are hoping to get eternal life in the end, like TP is. To say you have it, but can lose it, is contradictive, not to mention very unscriptural.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Is eternal life something that we possess independently which can never be forfeited? That appears to be the assumption which you have made.

It is NOT possessed independantly. We become one with Christ which is why it can never be forfeited. You must first understand "born again" before you will be able to understand OSAS.

What you have failed to realize, apparently, is that eternal life is not an independently held possession. Rather, it is something we have in union with the Son. Yes, God has given us eternal life, but John immediately goes on to say that this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

I wholeheartedly agree. I did not fail to realize this in fact I promote it.

Yes, eternal life is eternal, but it is only possessed by us if we remain in Christ, for eternal life finds its source in “Christ, who is our life”. Col 3:4

Again you need to understand "born again". Two become one. It is an act of God. Christ living in you is what keeps you saved and eternal. It cannot ever change or be undone.

NAS Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


First, let me point out that this is no mere hypothetical. There is no if hinted at. This was the actual situation of some of the Galatians.

Secondly, Paul is speaking to Christians, for you can’t fall from somewhere you’ve never been; you can’t be severed from something of which you were never a part. He is addressing those who had been in grace and who had been members of Christ. Obviously, Paul thought that they had not remained in Christ, however. They had been severed from Him. Paul’s desire is that they might be restored to Him. Their state when he wrote, however, was that they were fallen and severed.

You say "Paul's desire is that they might be restored to Him"

But when defending Hebrews 6 you say that is speaking about the save becoming lost and that passage states that it is "impossible" to be restored.

Now which way do you want it?

In the passage above, Jesus spoke of eternal life as a future inheritance. Here are a few more passages:

Are you saying then that we do not have eternal life in the present? I believe you are mixing up scriptures and are not rightly dividing the truth.

While we have eternal life in this life, we possess it only as we remain in union with Christ. Ultimately, eternal life will be realized in the judgment.

More contradictions. Do we have eternal life NOW or is it coming at a future date? Don't you guys understand the word "ETERNAL"?

Please clarify your position on Hebrews 6 verses what your position is on Galatians 5. Can you fall away and be restored or not? You'll have to adjust one position or the other.

God Bless!

 

[padredurand]

The best you could say is that you are hoping to get eternal life in the end, like TP is. To say you have it, but can lose it, is contradictive, not to mention very unscriptural.

If you give me a silver dollar with the condition that I don't watch M*A*S*H reruns and I abide by the conditions the silver dollar is mine to keep.

If at sometime in the future, I say forget you and indulge myself in watching M*A*S*H reruns what happens?

The dollar is still a dollar. It is still a silver dollar. The only thing different is that I cannot keep the silver dollar because I have defied the condition by which the dollar was given. I won't give it up easily, but it is no longer mine to keep.

You may think my position is "very unscriptural". That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. If you question whether I am saved or not is another matter.

 

[steaver]

If you give me a silver dollar with the condition that I don't watch M*A*S*H reruns and I abide by the conditions the silver dollar is mine to keep.

Therein lies the problem with your position. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. It is "free" to all who call for it. Once given, it has no return policy. Otherwise it was not "FREE". "Conditional" is not "free". You create another contradiction. It is given instantly, "born again". Eternal life is not something that comes and goes. There is a transformation, a rebirth, a new creature. Once you are physically born you cannot change what happened. You cannot become unborn. Niether can you change your spiritual birth. This is why Jesus used an unchangeable example, calling it "born again". Calling His gift "eternal" is God's promise that He is true to His word. He said "free" and free it will be...

Here is a silver dollar padredurand, it is free, as long as you don't watch MASH anymore. Well then, that isn't really free then is it? Contradiction and misconception of terms.

The gift is a rebirth, a new life, and that life is called "eternal". It cannot cease. It is an immediate act of God. God is good for His word. This is why I keep telling you guys to study what "born again" encompasses. Once studied, you will have to conclude it is a done deal!

You may think my position is "very unscriptural". That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. If you question whether I am saved or not is another matter.

I have no question about your conversion. In fact I am trying to encourage those in your camp to see how saved you really are. When you realize you are eternally in Christ forever, you will experience an overwhelming sense of obligation to love God and one another with all your heart, soul and mind.

God Bless!

 

[AZfiddler_Oct1996]

Hey guys, go to the forum for polls, I made a poll on "Are you sure you're going to Heaven."

-AZf

 

[padredurand]

In fact I am trying to encourage those in your camp to see how saved you really are. When you realize you are eternally in Christ forever, you will experience an overwhelming sense of obligation to love God and one another with all your heart, soul and mind.

Never had any question how really saved I was. I don't need an obligation to love God or one another. That would add a condition to what was already free. I love God because He loved me first.

Listen, I'm done chasing rabbits. I'm on to other threads like my killer thread on grits recipes.

 

[Walguy]

Too bad, I was looking forward to your response to the point about Galatians 5 and Hebrews 6, whether someone who has fallen away according to your beliefs can be restored or not.
I guess I'll have to assume that you offered no response because you don't have one.
Which means: game, set and match - steaver and OSAS!

 

[DHK]

Hey Padreurand,
Are you married?
I am. I don't have to hope I am married (thankfully).
I know I am married.
I don't have to wait sometime in the future for a judge to tell me I am married. I know I am married.
If I made my wife upset by doing something wrong, she'll forgive me, as I do her, and we'll still be married. We are married and nothing is going to change that.

When I got saved I became part of the bride of Christ. There is nothing that is going to change that. I look forward to the marriage feast in Heaven some day soon.
DHK

 

[eschatologist]

DHK

I could name several things that could happen that would change your marital status, but there is no need to go there. Yet there are plenty of passages in the Bible that you would have to toss away in order to make your "once saved always saved" doctrine valid. Many have been presented already, yet they can not withstand the barrage of assumptions and speculations. People are bent on believing their perceived and handed down traditions. How can this unwillingness to accept biblical truth be changed? When a passage clearly pronounces a fall from grace how can an opponent of such a doctrine find truth? First, throw out that vague and useless attempt to respond(because no other logic allows) to such passages with, "they were not really saved anyway!" If your marriage, as you presented above, were to dissolve(and God forbid!), would you respond with "I wasn't really married anyway?" These examples outlined for us in the Word clearly indicate that they were saved and fell. As I said in an above post, Paul tells us that we must FINISH the race, and it would require perseverance on our part! We would have to stay the course and overcome and finish to receive the prize We would have to ENDURE to the very end!. Hardly the kind of language one would use if the race were already won from the start!

 

[DHK]

Paul doesn't tell us that we must finish the race. He encourages us to do so. He says at the end of his life that he has finished the race. Please don't twist the Scripture. I see no Scripture which denies the clearly taught truths of 1John 5:11-13

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eternal life is given to them that believe. The Scripture teaches it plainly. God doesn't lie, and the Bible doesn't contradict itself. But there are individuals that don't have a good grasp of many passages of Scripture that are in the Bible.
DHK

 

[AZfiddler_Oct1996]

Amen. fiddlers bro.

 

[steaver]

Never had any question how really saved I was.

You bring up something that always intrigued me. All of the brothers and sisters in Christ that I ever deliberated OSAS with, who held the position that the saved could become lost again, never feel any threat that their own salvation might come up short. You would think that this Holy Spirit conviction alone would be screaming out to them OSAS! You know why you feel secure? Because Jesus Christ lives in you. He is always there reminding you that you are His. Praise Him!

It was great speaking with you about this padredurand. Take care and I'm not worried about your salvation. I'll see you at the marriage supper of the Lamb. I know this for sure even if your not sure what your future holds (you know, thinking you could fall away into condemnation) .

God Bless you brother!

 

[eschatologist]

DHK

Why don't you you take out your corkscrew and try and twist these!

Heb.6:3-6
James 5:19
Gal.4:9

 

[steaver]

We would have to stay the course and overcome and finish to receive the prize

Hi esch,

What prize is it that you are enduring for?

I already have eternal life as DHK pointed out using very clear passages of scripture.

Do you have eternal life? 1 John says we can know. Not "have it coming". The scripture says those in Christ "have it".

God Bless!

 

[MIZ83]

Steaver,

Earlier you quoted a commentary whose author believes the warnings of Hebrews to be merely hypothetical.

This, of course, is a common line of defense of OSAS. Since it simply can't be true that OSAS is false, passage after passage in the Scriptures that call that doctrine into question either have to be talking about people who aren't really Christians or they have to be merely hypothetical. But is OSAS called into question only by hypothetical warnings, and thus easily dismissed?

First, isn't it a bit hard to believe that so much of the NT is spent warning against an impossibility? While a dangerous curve sign might be heeded in a specific location with no accidents, we would not bother to put up signs if accidents on curves never happened. We certainly wouldn't if it were impossible. We don't warn against impossibilities; yet we are to believe that God has spent considerable space in the Scriptures doing just that.

Second, and more significantly, the Scriptures contain actual instances of apostasy. It is my conviction that the scriptures give abundant (and I mean abundant!) evidence that some do leave the faith, reject Jesus as Lord of their lives, and bring damnation upon themselves as a result. It is not the result of committing a sin, however grievous; nor is it the result of falling into a season of sin. Rather, it is a rejection of Jesus, whether by making a complete break with Him, or by living a lifestyle that denies His Lordship.

1 John 1:5-9 says:

5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Note that "walking in the light" is not walking without sin. Rather, if we are walking in the light confessing our sins, then we have forgiveness through Jesus blood. On the other hand, if we say that we have fellowship with Jesus, yet walk in darkness, we lie. Walking in darkness is obviously more than just having some sin in one's life. Those in the light have sin in their lives, according to John. Walking in darkness indicates a manner of life, a direction away from God. Walking in the light, on the other hand, is walking with Jesus.

Some indeed have forsaken Jesus to walk in darkness. Listen to Peter in 2 Peter 2:

NAS 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;

Notice that through inspiration Peter says that false prophets would arise "among the people". They would introduce heresy even "denying the Master who bought them". They had been bought by the Master. They had been saved. But by introducing heresies and denying the Master, they would bring "swift destruction upon themselves."

Peter continues in the chapter to describe the Lord’s judgment of others in the past and the excesses that would lead to their judgment. As awful as they were, however, they had been children of God. Peter calls them "accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way they have gone astray...."

Having denied the Master, it is no surprise that they would be "overcome" and once again become "slaves of corruption".

18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

Peter continues:

20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Notice, again, that these men had been saved. They had "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Sin defiles. In coming to know Jesus, in having a relationship with Him, we are forgiven of our sins which defile us. These men had escaped defilement through Jesus. Now, "after washing", they were returning to wallow in the mire. They had been washed clean of their defilement; but now they were defiled again.

Notice that this is not talking merely about committing sins, which we all do even as we walk in the light. I say that not to minimize sin. But this is talking about something even more drastic. These men had "known the way of righteousness", but now would "turn away from the holy commandment". These men had not merely stumbled along the way. They had changed direction. They had left the way. They had turned away.

But would they be saved anyway, as the doctrine of eternal security demands? Peter says, "the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them." Now if they were still saved, it would be hard to understand how they could be worse off than before they were saved. It would be hard to understand how they would have been better off if they had not known the way of righteousness. Could it ever be better to be lost than to be saved? No, that interpretation just doesn’t fit, does it? The sobering truth is that having denied their Master who bought them and returned to living a life in the mire they would be judged more severely than those who have never known the way of righteousness. They would be lost. Furthermore, their last state would be worse than their first, although the text doesn’t tell us how.

Please be reminded, the above is not merely a warning. Peter through inspiration said it would happen, according to verse 1. I choose to believe Peter rather than those who say it is impossible for such to happen. I urge you to reconsider.

More later,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Thanks for the post Bob, but please do not simply post without reading responses and replying to other's questions. I will consider your last post and reply asap.

Here was my last comments to you. Please give answer. Thank you!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAS Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


First, let me point out that this is no mere hypothetical. There is no if hinted at. This was the actual situation of some of the Galatians.

Secondly, Paul is speaking to Christians, for you can’t fall from somewhere you’ve never been; you can’t be severed from something of which you were never a part. He is addressing those who had been in grace and who had been members of Christ. Obviously, Paul thought that they had not remained in Christ, however. They had been severed from Him. Paul’s desire is that they might be restored to Him. Their state when he wrote, however, was that they were fallen and severed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say "Paul's desire is that they might be restored to Him"

But when defending Hebrews 6 you say that is speaking about the save becoming lost and that passage states that it is "impossible" to be restored.

Now which way do you want it?

Please clarify your position on Hebrews 6 verses what your position is on Galatians 5. Can you fall away and be restored or not? You'll have to adjust one position or the other.

God Bless!