Once Saved Always Saved

[Winman]

No, they did not believe. Their so-called "belief" was fickle. Check 1John 2:19

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--John indicates that true believers remain faithful.

Did Simon believe "from his heart" with genuine belief and repentance?
Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Then why did Peter say to him?
Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Of course not.

Unbelievable, Jesus Christ our Lord said these persons believed, and you come along and say they didn't. That takes a lot of nerve to contradict our Lord.

These folks are saved, they sprang up. Nothing dead springs up. But they did not produce fruit.

Folks don't know how to read with comprehension, they read their presuppositions into scripture instead of letting scripture speak to them.

If you believe, you are saved.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Again, unbelievable.

 

[DHK]

Unbelievable, Jesus Christ our Lord said these persons believed, and you come along and say they didn't. That takes a lot of nerve to contradict our Lord.

The nerve of you!

These folks are saved, they sprang up. Nothing dead springs up. But they did not produce fruit.

Jesus did not say they were saved. I will believe him and not you.

Folks don't know how to read with comprehension, they read their presuppositions into scripture instead of letting scripture speak to them.

It is quite true. Folks don't know how to read with comprehension.

If you believe, you are saved.

If the belief is genuine. Answer me about Simon. He believed and was baptized. Was he saved? Yes or no.

Luk 8:12

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Again, unbelievable.

Unbelievable indeed!
"Lest they should believe and be saved." That does not say they are saved.
The passive subjunctive is being used. The devil will do anything (like take away the seed) to keep one from being saved. "lest they should be saved."
Learn your grammar.

 

[Winman]

The nerve of you!

I am not the one who contradicted Jesus.

Jesus did not say they were saved. I will believe him and not you.

Jesus had just said "lest they should believe and be saved". He didn't say you had to believe and continue to believe.

It is quite true. Folks don't know how to read with comprehension.

That is obvious to all.

If the belief is genuine. Answer me about Simon. He believed and was baptized. Was he saved? Yes or no.

Yes, I believe he was.

Unbelievable indeed!
"Lest they should believe and be saved." That does not say they are saved.
The passive subjunctive is being used. The devil will do anything (like take away the seed) to keep one from being saved. "lest they should be saved."
Learn your grammar.

Actually, it does. If you believe you are saved. These persons had life, they sprang up.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Only the soil that fell by the wayside failed to spring up. The way side soil represents a person who does not believe, they are lost.

The rocky soil and the thorny soil both sprang up. That is life. They are saved. Yet one fell away because of persecution, the other fell away because they were distracted by the cares of life. They were saved, but they produced no fruit. They did not bring others to Christ.

The good soil are those who do not fall away, they work for the Lord and produce much fruit. They bring many to Christ.

But the rocky soil and the thorny soil were saved. They believed, and they had life.

 

[DHK]

I am not the one who contradicted Jesus.



Jesus had just said "lest they should believe and be saved". He didn't say you had to believe and continue to believe.



That is obvious to all.



Yes, I believe he was.




Actually, it does. If you believe you are saved. These persons had life, they sprang up.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Only the soil that fell by the wayside failed to spring up. The way side soil represents a person who does not believe, they are lost.

The rocky soil and the thorny soil both sprang up. That is life. They are saved. Yet one fell away because of persecution, the other fell away because they were distracted by the cares of life. They were saved, but they produced no fruit. They did not bring others to Christ.

The good soil are those who do not fall away, they work for the Lord and produce much fruit. They bring many to Christ.

But the rocky soil and the thorny soil were saved. They believed, and they had life.

You are contradicting yourself. You are now admitting they are lost.
Go back to the post just before I entered the conversation. You asked about verse 12. Verse 12 is an explanation of verse 5, which you now say is describing the lost.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They are those by the wayside. You said "only the ones by the wayside are the ones that are lost."
You have changed your position.

 

[Winman]

You are contradicting yourself. You are now admitting they are lost.
Go back to the post just before I entered the conversation. You asked about verse 12. Verse 12 is an explanation of verse 5, which you now say is describing the lost.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They are those by the wayside. You said "only the ones by the wayside are the ones that are lost."
You have changed your position.

You need new glasses, I asked about verse 13;

Did the persons in verse 13 believe? YES. Did they endure to the end? NO, in time of temptation they "fell away"

Now, answer me this, are these persons saved? Yes or No?

I haven't contradicted myself whatsoever. I asked if the persons in verse 13 believed, and the answer is YES. I then asked if they endured to the end, and the answer is NO.

I didn't say whether they were lost or saved, I asked the reader to determine that.

 

[DHK]

You need new glasses, I asked about verse 13;



I haven't contradicted myself whatsoever. I asked if the persons in verse 13 believed, and the answer is YES. I then asked if they endured to the end, and the answer is NO.

I didn't say whether they were lost or saved, I asked the reader to determine that.

My mistake; so you did.
And I answered
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

According to 1John 2:19 true believers continue in the faith. They remain faithful. Their faith is not fickle.

Unlike Simon who was said to have believed and even baptized, his faith was not genuine. When Peter said:
Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
--It is not an indication of salvation. His "belief" was in vain.

Jesus said: If you continue in my words then are you my disciples.

 

[Winman]

My mistake; so you did.
And I answered
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

According to 1John 2:19 true believers continue in the faith. They remain faithful. Their faith is not fickle.

Unlike Simon who was said to have believed and even baptized, his faith was not genuine. When Peter said:
Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
--It is not an indication of salvation. His "belief" was in vain.

Jesus said: If you continue in my words then are you my disciples.

Yes, Jesus said if you continue in my word, then you are my "disciples", he did not say, if you continue in my word, then you are "saved".

You have to read scripture for what it actually says.

People are constantly reading into scripture what is not there.

We know the thorny soil and the rocky soil were saved because they "sprang up". Only a living plant springs up. However, they did not mature and produce fruit.

The problem with your view of Luke 8 and Simon is that you undercut the promises of God to save whoever believes. If your view is correct, then we cannot know if we are saved if we believe, or at least until the end of our lives. But scripture says we are NOW the sons of God, and that we can KNOW we have eternal life because we have believed.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse could not be true if your view is correct, we would have to wait and see if we persevere to be the sons of God.

1 Jhn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We could not know we have eternal life because we have believed in your view, we would have to wait and see if we continued to believe until the moment we died.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse cannot be true if your view is correct, we cannot be passed from death to life when we believe as this verse says, because we could stop believing and be lost.

If your view is correct, no man can be certain he will be saved if he believes on Jesus.

 

[JPPT1974]

My earthly parents will forever be my parents. No way around it.

So it is with being born into the Family of God.

Amen in agreement!

 

[DHK]

Yes, Jesus said if you continue in my word, then you are my "disciples", he did not say, if you continue in my word, then you are "saved".

Saved are sanctified and then continue to go through a process of sanctification and soon produce fruit. If they have no fruit they are not saved. If they are producing fruit they are disciples.

You have to read scripture for what it actually says.

People are constantly reading into scripture what is not there.

Yeah, I know someone who does that.

We know the thorny soil and the rocky soil were saved because they "sprang up". Only a living plant springs up. However, they did not mature and produce fruit.

I have lots of weeds in my yard. They have plenty of seeds and flowers. They are very much alive--too much alive. They spread very quickly. But that is not a picture of "the saved."
Just because something is "living" does not mean it is "saved."

The problem with your view of Luke 8 and Simon is that you undercut the promises of God to save whoever believes. If your view is correct, then we cannot know if we are saved if we believe, or at least until the end of our lives. But scripture says we are NOW the sons of God, and that we can KNOW we have eternal life because we have believed.

Your one word = one meaning is not a proper way to divide the word of truth. It is wrong hermeneutically. That is where you make mistakes.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This verse could not be true if your view is correct, we would have to wait and see if we persevere to be the sons of God.

First, I have said nothing about persevering.
Second, I am not a Calvinist. I don't know what you are talking about.

1 Jhn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We could not know we have eternal life because we have believed in your view, we would have to wait and see if we continued to believe until the moment we died.

Utter foolishness. I know I am saved because I have believed.
On a personal note:
Just because you SAY you believe doesn't mean that I KNOW you believe.
Only God knows the heart.
God knew the heart of Simon. God knew he didn't believe even though he was baptized. He may have fooled those around him, but he couldn't fool God, nor Peter.
Others may say "I believe." That doesn't mean they do.
1John 2:19 makes that very plain. There were many that said "I believe," but it wasn't a genuine belief. God knew who they were and who they weren't. John said the only way we could tell was if they were faithful or not. Faithfulness was a fruit of a believer, not a condition to be a believer.

Jhn 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse cannot be true if your view is correct, we cannot be passed from death to life when we believe as this verses says, because we could stop believing and be lost.

Apparently you don't know my view.

If your view is correct, no man can be certain he will be saved if he believes on Jesus.

You don't know my view.

 

[Winman]

Saved are sanctified and then continue to go through a process of sanctification and soon produce fruit. If they have no fruit they are not saved. If they are producing fruit they are disciples.

OK, if someone asks you, "Will Jesus save me if I trust him?", you can give them a big MAYBE, because it all depends on whether they persevere to the end. Nice.

Yeah, I know someone who does that.

I'm sure you know him very well.

I have lots of weeds in my yard. They have plenty of seeds and flowers. They are very much alive--too much alive. They spread very quickly. But that is not a picture of "the saved."
Just because something is "living" does not mean it is "saved."

It does in the parable of the sower.

Your one word = one meaning is not a proper way to divide the word of truth. It is wrong hermeneutically. That is where you make mistakes.

My interpretation is error? You are the one who believes a person can believe on Jesus and perish.

First, I have said nothing about persevering.
Second, I am not a Calvinist. I don't know what you are talking about.

But that is the issue. The thorny soil and the rocky soil believed for "a while". They did not persevere.

Utter foolishness. I know I am saved because I have believed.

How do you know? Maybe you will fall away ten years from now.

On a personal note:
Just because you SAY you believe doesn't mean that I KNOW you believe.

OK, so what?

Only God knows the heart.

Yes, and Jesus said the rocky soil believed "for a while".

God knew the heart of Simon. God knew he didn't believe even though he was baptized. He may have fooled those around him, but he couldn't fool God, nor Peter.

That's not what the scripture says, you are reading your presupposition into scripture again. Scripture says he believed.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

What's more, the scriptures do not say Simon stopped believing, only that he tried to purchase the gift of giving the Holy Spirit by laying on hands. So you are reading all sorts of things into scripture that are not being said.

Others may say "I believe." That doesn't mean they do.
1John 2:19 makes that very plain. There were many that said "I believe," but it wasn't a genuine belief. God knew who they were and who they weren't. John said the only way we could tell was if they were faithful or not. Faithfulness was a fruit of a believer, not a condition to be a believer.

Well, this is not a matter of someone claiming to believe, the scriptures say the thorny soil believed, and that Simon believed. In both cases you are questioning the Holy Spirit who inspired these scriptures.

I don't think you are doing that on purpose, but that is what you are doing nevertheless. You need to believe what the scriptures SAY.

That's a lot folk's problem around here, they don't believe what the scriptures actually say.

Apparently you don't know my view.

You don't know my view.

Oh, I think you have made your view pretty plain to everyone. You think a person has to persevere to be saved. Well, you said they have to "continue to go through a process of sanctification and produce fruit". That sure sounds like code for persevere to me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Unbelievable, Jesus Christ our Lord said these persons believed, and you come along and say they didn't. That takes a lot of nerve to contradict our Lord.

These folks are saved, they sprang up. Nothing dead springs up. But they did not produce fruit.

Folks don't know how to read with comprehension, they read their presuppositions into scripture instead of letting scripture speak to them.

If you believe, you are saved.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Again, unbelievable.

DHK has spoken correctly...what is unbelievable is your never seeing it.

 

[Winman]

DHK has spoken correctly...what is unbelievable is your never seeing it.

This is about the equivalent of a presidential candidate getting an endorsement from the Communist Party.

 

[Inspector Javert]

I think it needs to be understood that Simon's belief was not a genuine belief:
It was always a competition for him....notice that he only "believed" after seeing what the people did

Act 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also ....
He "continues" with the apostles with an obvious concern to trade in one sorcery for another one:
he continued with Philip,(WHY PHILIP, and not the other saints in fellowship?) and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
He is simply following this new sorceror named Philip, who has stolen his erstwhile followers and beholding what he does...

Act 8:19
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands,
He now sees this "laying on of hands" ritual and seeks to purchase it....notice Peter's words to him:
Act 8:20
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee
God's people...even when they sin, do not "PERISH". Peter would never tell a true believer he was going to "perish".
Act 8:21
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter:
Simon has NEITHER "part" NOR "lot" in the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Act 8:23
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
He is IN THE BOND of iniquity....that is verbiage reserved for those who are still in their sins. Saints are not "in the bond" of iniquity.
In my mind, however, the most OBVIOUS tell-tale sign that Simon was not a true believer was how he reacted to what Peter told him to do. Notice that Peter instructed SIMON to pray, but Simon counters with this:
Act 8:24
Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me,

Why would not Simon simply repent for himself? Every Christian has Christ as his own High Priest, and needs no apostle to pray for him....

I believe Simon's "belief" was a simple copy-cat of what he saw other people doing....and his desire was always and simply to bring the people back under his influence and $$$$...

1.) He simply followed the crowd
2.) He followed the apostles around watching their miracles
3.) Peter said he was "in the bond" of iniquity and his money would "perish" with him
4.) Rather than pray himself for forgiveness he asks these new-fangled "magicians" (in his mind) to pray FOR him.

I believe DHK is right...Simon's story must be recognized for what it is on the whole.

 

[DHK]

OK, if someone asks you, "Will Jesus save me if I trust him?", you can give them a big MAYBE, because it all depends on whether they persevere to the end. Nice.

I never said that. Putting words in a person's mouth is deceitful and dishonest.

It does in the parable of the sower.

No, it never does. Tares are never equal to wheat.
God's people are never equated to tares or weeds--thorns and briars--never.

My interpretation is error? You are the one who believes a person can believe on Jesus and perish.

I never said that. I said a person can believe and not mean it.
How do I know if you say "I believe in Christ" that you have truly believed?
Only God knows the heart. I don't. Do you claim omniscience?

But that is the issue. The thorny soil and the rocky soil believed for "a while". They did not persevere.

Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Listen carefully now. The parable is about the seed which is the Word of God, and the soil which is the heart of man.
You are confusing some of the elements here. The rock is not the soil, as is the thorns not the soil. They are introduced into the soil as Jesus narrates the parable. The third type of soil is "good" which has no stones and no thorns.
Good soil will yield good fruit. Jesus consistently taught this truth.

This is not a parable about perseverance. It is about genuine belief.
If the seed, the Word of God, as it was thrown on the soil, fell upon a rock where there was no moisture, it would not take root and grow. It would die. There was no genuine belief. Things don't grow on rocks. Ask the evolutionists who keep trying to get life from so-called meteorites supposedly coming from Mars. Life doesn't come from rocks.

The next soil has been poisoned with thorns and thistles. As the seed is cast forth it doesn't grow among the thorns, but it is choked out. It has no life. "It choked it." Its life was snuffed out. It died.
Remember this is a parable and you can't read things that aren't there into it. It is just a parable. There is no life in these first two soils. They both were contaminated soils.

We both agreed on the first soil--falling by the wayside. "Trodden under foot."
That leaves one:
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
The same parable in Matthew says:
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
--Note: 3 soils that bring forth unbelievers; one soil that brings 3 varying amounts of fruit.

How do you know? Maybe you will fall away ten years from now.

Because I have a relationship not a religion.

That's not what the scripture says, you are reading your presupposition into scripture again. Scripture says he believed.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Does it say he believed in Christ and his atoning sacrifice? No.
He was amazed at the miracles. He believed in the power of Christ, not necessarily that He was the Messiah.

What's more, the scriptures do not say Simon stopped believing, only that he tried to purchase the gift of giving the Holy Spirit by laying on hands. So you are reading all sorts of things into scripture that are not being said.

Peter condemned his belief. That is not much of a recommendation. I will stand with the words of Peter on this issue.

Well, this is not a matter of someone claiming to believe, the scriptures say the thorny soil believed, and that Simon believed. In both cases you are questioning the Holy Spirit who inspired these scriptures.

This is a soil that is contaminated with thorns. Look at it properly. The soil represents the heart. Christ is not able to sit and rule the heart because it is covered over with other things.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Believers produce fruit. Jesus taught that.
You are allowing the Scriptures to contradict itself.

I don't think you are doing that on purpose, but that is what you are doing nevertheless. You need to believe what the scriptures SAY.

That's a lot folk's problem around here, they don't believe what the scriptures actually say.

You are not allowing the Scriptures to say what they actually do say when you ignore context.
"Yea hath God said?" Yes God has said! But not in the context you put it in!
"I believe" doesn't always mean what you think.
"The devil's believe and tremble" but the devils are not going to heaven.

Oh, I think you have made your view pretty plain to everyone. You think a person has to persevere to be saved. Well, you said they have to "continue to go through a process of sanctification and produce fruit". That sure sounds like code for persevere to me.

Just plain slander. I do not believe the above. I am not a Calvinist. Grow up.

 

[Winman]

I never said that. Putting words in a person's mouth is deceitful and dishonest.

Here is what you said;

Saved are sanctified and then continue to go through a process of sanctification and soon produce fruit. If they have no fruit they are not saved. If they are producing fruit they are disciples.

You are defining a saved person as one who continues through a process of sanctification and soon produce fruit. And if they do not produce fruit they are not saved. This sounds like Lordship Salvation to me. It teaches a person must persevere or endure to the end to be saved. That is what the word "continue" means. So, I do not believe I have misrepresented you at all.

No, it never does. Tares are never equal to wheat.
God's people are never equated to tares or weeds--thorns and briars--never.

There is not a word about tares or wheat in the parable of the sower. Once again you are reading into scripture what is not there. In fact, we know that the seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

I never said that. I said a person can believe and not mean it.
How do I know if you say "I believe in Christ" that you have truly believed?
Only God knows the heart. I don't. Do you claim omniscience?

A person can believe and not mean it? What are you saying? If that is so, no man can be certain he is saved. Your own signature verse says, "I know whom I have believed".

If you don't know if you were serious when you believed, you have a serious issue that I have no idea how to fix.

Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Listen carefully now. The parable is about the seed which is the Word of God, and the soil which is the heart of man.
You are confusing some of the elements here. The rock is not the soil, as is the thorns not the soil. They are introduced into the soil as Jesus narrates the parable. The third type of soil is "good" which has no stones and no thorns.

Each soil represents the hearer of God's word. The way side are those that hear, but before they believe, the fowls or devil takes the word out of their heart. This is sin. Their love for sin prevents them from believing.

The rocky soil are believers, they receive the word with joy. They spring up, they are alive. But when persecution comes, they fall away and produce no fruit.

The thorny soil also receive the word and spring up. They are alive. But the pleasures and distractions of the world lure them away from service and they produce no fruit.

Good soil will yield good fruit. Jesus consistently taught this truth.

The soil is good because they love Jesus and want to serve him. They do not give up when the going gets rough, they do not love the world more than Jesus. They serve him as best they can and bring many folks to Jesus.

It's like my good buddy at church. He can't preach, he is not all that smart, but he has been picking up kids all over our town for years in our bus and bringing them to church. I would bet that literally hundreds of children have been saved because of his faithful service. And it ain't easy starting a bus here in the winter, YOU know that.

This is not a parable about perseverance. It is about genuine belief.
If the seed, the Word of God, as it was thrown on the soil, fell upon a rock where there was no moisture, it would not take root and grow. It would die. There was no genuine belief. Things don't grow on rocks. Ask the evolutionists who keep trying to get life from so-called meteorites supposedly coming from Mars. Life doesn't come from rocks.

You couldn't be more wrong, it is absolutely about perseverance, the rocky soil and thorny soil fell away.

The next soil has been poisoned with thorns and thistles. As the seed is cast forth it doesn't grow among the thorns, but it is choked out. It has no life. "It choked it." Its life was snuffed out. It died.
Remember this is a parable and you can't read things that aren't there into it. It is just a parable. There is no life in these first two soils. They both were contaminated soils.

Yes, but you have to be alive to be choked to death. Nevertheless, it is not teaching that they spiritually died, or you would have to believe we could lose our salvation. That is not what it says, it says they did not bare fruit.

We both agreed on the first soil--falling by the wayside. "Trodden under foot."
That leaves one:
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
The same parable in Matthew says:
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
--Note: 3 soils that bring forth unbelievers; one soil that brings 3 varying amounts of fruit.

Because I have a relationship not a religion.

Does it say he believed in Christ and his atoning sacrifice? No.
He was amazed at the miracles. He believed in the power of Christ, not necessarily that He was the Messiah.

Peter condemned his belief. That is not much of a recommendation. I will stand with the words of Peter on this issue.

This is a soil that is contaminated with thorns. Look at it properly. The soil represents the heart. Christ is not able to sit and rule the heart because it is covered over with other things.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Believers produce fruit. Jesus taught that.
You are allowing the Scriptures to contradict itself.

You are not allowing the Scriptures to say what they actually do say when you ignore context.
"Yea hath God said?" Yes God has said! But not in the context you put it in!
"I believe" doesn't always mean what you think.
"The devil's believe and tremble" but the devils are not going to heaven.

Just plain slander. I do not believe the above. I am not a Calvinist. Grow up.

Jesus did not say the rocky and thorny soil were unbelievers. He said they believed "for a while". He did not say they were lost, he said they brought forth no fruit to perfection.

You are reading all sorts of things into this parable that are not being said.

 

[Winman]

I think it needs to be understood that Simon's belief was not a genuine belief:
It was always a competition for him....notice that he only "believed" after seeing what the people did

Act 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also ....
He "continues" with the apostles with an obvious concern to trade in one sorcery for another one:
he continued with Philip,(WHY PHILIP, and not the other saints in fellowship?) and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
He is simply following this new sorceror named Philip, who has stolen his erstwhile followers and beholding what he does...

Act 8:19
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands,
He now sees this "laying on of hands" ritual and seeks to purchase it....notice Peter's words to him:
Act 8:20
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee
God's people...even when they sin, do not "PERISH". Peter would never tell a true believer he was going to "perish".
Act 8:21
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter:
Simon has NEITHER "part" NOR "lot" in the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Act 8:23
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
He is IN THE BOND of iniquity....that is verbiage reserved for those who are still in their sins. Saints are not "in the bond" of iniquity.
In my mind, however, the most OBVIOUS tell-tale sign that Simon was not a true believer was how he reacted to what Peter told him to do. Notice that Peter instructed SIMON to pray, but Simon counters with this:
Act 8:24
Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me,

Why would not Simon simply repent for himself? Every Christian has Christ as his own High Priest, and needs no apostle to pray for him....

I believe Simon's "belief" was a simple copy-cat of what he saw other people doing....and his desire was always and simply to bring the people back under his influence and $$$$...

1.) He simply followed the crowd
2.) He followed the apostles around watching their miracles
3.) Peter said he was "in the bond" of iniquity and his money would "perish" with him
4.) Rather than pray himself for forgiveness he asks these new-fangled "magicians" (in his mind) to pray FOR him.

I believe DHK is right...Simon's story must be recognized for what it is on the whole.

We usually agree, but not this time. The word of God itself says Simon believed, and if he believed he was saved right then and there.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

This is not a case of Simon claiming he believed, the word of God says he believed. So according to the word of God he is saved. If not, then NONE of us have a guarantee we are saved if we believe on Jesus.

Think about that for a few minutes.

And when Peter said "thy money perish with thee" he is not necessarily speaking of eternal death, but physical death, just as Ananias and Sapphira died when they lied to God and kept back some of their money in Acts chapter 5. They were believers too, but God killed them when they lied to him.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

I believe Peter was warning Simon of physical death like Ananias and his wife Sapphira, not eternal spiritual death.

If the scriptures show a man can believe on Jesus and then perish, none of us has any guarantee we will be saved. I don't know of any Christian who does not sin after he was saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is about the equivalent of a presidential candidate getting an endorsement from the Communist Party.

Winman...I am a neutral observer here. DHK and I disagree on certain areas but he is telling you the truth here...he has been for weeks and he is not yet a Calvinist[although if he keeps speaking to you he will be driven to it:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Winman...I am a neutral observer here. DHK and I disagree on certain areas but he is telling you the truth here...he has been for weeks and he is not yet a Calvinist[although if he keeps speaking to you he will be driven to it:laugh:

You neutral? LOL, that is a good one! Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee or I would have spit all over my monitor.

Yeah, you are about as neutral as Barack Obama



Even Nancy is laughing at that one.

 

[Don]

If I may?

James 2:19 tells us that even the devils believe, and tremble. We know that the devils have no hope of heaven; so there must be more than one type of belief.

I think Hebrews 10:38-39 answers this quite adequately. I believe v.38 exemplifies the believers typified by the thorns et al; and v.39 exemplifies those that are of the good ground and bear fruit. I don't believe that v.38 speaks of losing our salvation; but of not having saving faith to begin with.

We can believe, like Simon in the book of Acts; or we can believe to the saving of our souls.

Just my two cents.

 

[Inspector Javert]

We usually agree, but not this time. The word of God itself says Simon believed, and if he believed he was saved right then and there.

If he truly believed....yes, and if his faith was genuine yes....
The entire argument is that he never really believed but made a profession only.
The writer, Luke, doesn't know what is in Simon's heart...he only knows the historical facts:

Do you not understand that many may "come forward" after seeing what others do, but they do not truly believe to salvation?

Simon "believed" in the sense that after seeing what everyone else did, he made a profession and got baptized along with the lot of them, but he wasn't seeking salvation...he was seeking more powerful sorcery.

HE NEVER STOPPED seeking greater sorcery. As DHK pointed out to you:
Even the devils "believe" and tremble
Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Your argument is based upon the use of the word "believe". But apparently, that mere word (so used) is not a 100% guarantor of salvation. Luke is reporting what he knows: he knows Simon made a profession at least and claimed to believe.

This is not a case of Simon claiming he believed, the word of God says he believed.

The word of God says the devils "believe".

So according to the word of God he is saved.

According to Luke...he made a public profession:
After seeing that the people followed after his new competition.

If not, then NONE of us have a guarantee we are saved if we believe on Jesus.

Were you seeking more powerful forms of sorcery when you believed?
If not...
You're probably in the clear and will have no need to worry.

And when Peter said "thy money perish with thee" he is not necessarily speaking of eternal death, but physical death, just as Ananias and Sapphira died when they lied to God and kept back some of their money in Acts chapter 5. They were believers too, but God killed them when they lied to him.

O.K....that's possible, but that's certainly only one issue in what I see to be a preponderance of evidences. However, I don't think Peter was threatening Simon with physical death. Notice Peter said Simon "MAY" be forgiven:
Act 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
That is NOT what you say to a true Christian...the promise to a true Christian is this:
1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is the GUARANTEE God has for all believers...
No may, can, perhaps, if, maybe about it.

Peter promised Simon no such thing: Peter PERCEIVED something about Simon that wasn't genuine.

I believe Peter was warning Simon of physical death like Ananias and his wife Sapphira, not eternal spiritual death.

Or perhaps....he was saying the 1st Century version of: "take your money and shove it"....
in his vernacular...
I don't think he was threatening Simon with physical death though.

If the scriptures show a man can believe on Jesus and then perish, none of us has any guarantee we will be saved. I don't know of any Christian who does not sin after he was saved.

There ARE tares among the wheat right?
The tares were NEVER saved. But, it might loosely be said that they "believed" (or at least made a show of it) like everyone else.

Either:
1.) Luke is simply reporting the facts as he knows them and there was at minimum a profession of belief....but a preponderance of evidence that Simon was no more a sheep than the man in the moon or...
2.) Luke was super-naturally inspired by the Holy Spirit to KNOW unquestionably what Simon's heart TRULY WAS and despite all the evidence, Luke has special inspiration straight from the Holy Spirit that no matter the fact that Simon is a sorceror (and remained one)...deep down, his faith was genuine and real.

I think you are assuming too much about the nature of inspiration of Scripture:
Rev 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
1Co 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Simon remained a sorceror and extortioner:

That's the preponderance of evidence given by Luke.