Once Saved Always Saved

[Winman]

If I may?

James 2:19 tells us that even the devils believe, and tremble. We know that the devils have no hope of heaven; so there must be more than one type of belief.

I think Hebrews 10:38-39 answers this quite adequately. I believe v.38 exemplifies the believers typified by the thorns et al; and v.39 exemplifies those that are of the good ground and bear fruit. I don't believe that v.38 speaks of losing our salvation; but of not having saving faith to begin with.

We can believe, like Simon in the book of Acts; or we can believe to the saving of our souls.

Just my two cents.

Excellent observation.

Did Jesus die for the angels? Do the angels have any promise to be saved if they believe on Jesus?

Believing on Jesus is not believing a fact. It is actually casting yourself in complete dependence upon Jesus to save you.

It is like a person in a building on fire. You are stuck in the 6th floor window with no escape. You could try to climb down, but you will certainly fall to your death.

Firemen below shout up to you. They have a large net. They call for you to jump, and promise they will catch you. You are scared, but the firemen look strong, and the net is big, and the fire is closing in. You trust the firemen and leap from the window. You have placed your life completely in their hands and their ability to catch you as they promised. They catch you and you are saved.

Trusting Jesus is the same. He has promised to save you if you will simply come to him for forgiveness. You must give up trying to save yourself in any way. Your church membership cannot save you, your good works cannot save you, nothing and no one but Jesus can save you. You come to Jesus in your heart like the publican who cried, Lord, be merciful to me a sinner!. You are saved.

The devils have no promise like this, Jesus didn't die for them, and Jesus did not promise to save them. They know Jesus is real, they know this far better than we do. But they cannot be saved.

This is why Limited Atonement is so horrendous. If Jesus did not personally die for you, you have no hope just like the angels who fell. There is no atonement for you, and no promise for you to believe.

 

[SolaSaint]

I believe that the subject is a false doctrine,
and in fact a very dangerous teaching that leads
Christian to not fear God and causing not to
live a holy life.
I had seen a lot of lousy baptist and even pastor
engaging elicit act of lasciviousness, and I blame
that the subject are the root cause of this.
I am not wondering why, because it is clear
in the main lesson of 2nd letter of Peter that
false doctrine penetrated even the churches of
the saints during Peter's time.

Those who do not fear God, I believe are the ones who arrogantly believe they are OSAS when in fact they aren't. It doesn't bother them to sin against God because they don't belong to Him. Truly OSAS Christians will not live an unholy life, God will not let them because they belong to Him. OSAS is only a dangerous doctrine to the unsaved person. I even believe people like you who fail to understand OSAS will still enter His Kingdom as long as you belong to Him.

 

[DHK]

Here is what you said;

You are defining a saved person as one who continues through a process of sanctification and soon produce fruit. And if they do not produce fruit they are not saved. This sounds like Lordship Salvation to me. It teaches a person must persevere or endure to the end to be saved. That is what the word "continue" means. So, I do not believe I have misrepresented you at all.

1. At salvation a person is saved, regenerated, justified, sanctified, and much much more. Do you believe that?
2. Beginning at salvation the Christian begins to change, that is, submit himself to Christ. It is called sanctification.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--A new creature begins to change. This has nothing to do with perseverance.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
--No change, and you say you know him, then you are a liar, aren't you?

There is not a word about tares or wheat in the parable of the sower. Once again you are reading into scripture what is not there. In fact, we know that the seed is the word of God.

As the parable is told in Matthew:
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Then immediately after he launches into another parable, and just a few verses later says:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Both tares and thorns can be classified under "weeds." They choke out the good seed. It doesn't use the word "tare" but it does use the word "thorn,"
You can look this up for yourself. The thorns here are not just individual thorns on a plant. They are plants in and of themselves, like thistles.
Look at the verse:
Luke 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
--It is not plants having thorns that choked them. It is the thorns. Some of these plants can grow 20-30 feet high in the east. It is not referring to "thorns" on a rose bush. They are a kind of plant like a thistle.

A person can believe and not mean it? What are you saying? If that is so, no man can be certain he is saved. Your own signature verse says, "I know whom I have believed".

I am saying:
Simon "believed" and was not saved.
The devils "believed" and are not saved.
I grew up as a Catholic and "believed" and yet was not saved. I believed that Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead. I knew about his sacrifice. I knew the facts. I "believed." I never herd the gospel, however. I never heard how those facts personally apply to me. The gospel is personal. It must be applied. In salvation there is a personal relationship, not just belief or acceptance of a set of facts. Most historians will accept and believe the facts. That doesn't make all historians saved.

If you don't know if you were serious when you believed, you have a serious issue that I have no idea how to fix.

I am not God nor claim to be:
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Each soil represents the hearer of God's word. The way side are those that hear, but before they believe, the fowls or devil takes the word out of their heart. This is sin. Their love for sin prevents them from believing.

They hear but do not believe.

The rocky soil are believers, they receive the word with joy. They spring up, they are alive. But when persecution comes, they fall away and produce no fruit.

Not so.
They believe for a little while, meaning they mentally accept the facts. I did that in the RCC. I "believed." That wouldn't have helped had persecution come, would it?

The thorny soil also receive the word and spring up. They are alive. But the pleasures and distractions of the world lure them away from service and they produce no fruit.

Unbelievers that show interest, but that is all. Their hearts are too "wrapped up" in the material things of this world to care about Christ.

You couldn't be more wrong, it is absolutely about perseverance, the rocky soil and thorny soil fell away.

No, it is about belief and unbelief. It is about the reasons for unbelief.
Yes, but you have to be alive to be choked to death. Nevertheless, it is not teaching that they spiritually died, or you would have to believe we could lose our salvation. That is not what it says, it says they did not bare fruit.

Jesus did not say the rocky and thorny soil were unbelievers. He said they believed "for a while". He did not say they were lost, he said they brought forth no fruit to perfection.

You are reading all sorts of things into this parable that are not being said.

You are reading things into this parable, not I.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Good soil brings forth good fruit.
A good tree brings forth good fruit.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

 

[Winman]

1. At salvation a person is saved, regenerated, justified, sanctified, and much much more. Do you believe that?

Yes.

2. Beginning at salvation the Christian begins to change, that is, submit himself to Christ. It is called sanctification.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--A new creature begins to change. This has nothing to do with perseverance.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
--No change, and you say you know him, then you are a liar, aren't you?

Everyone is different. Samson was saved, but no one would have believed that from observing his behavior.

As the parable is told in Matthew:
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Then immediately after he launches into another parable, and just a few verses later says:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Both tares and thorns can be classified under "weeds." They choke out the good seed. It doesn't use the word "tare" but it does use the word "thorn,"
You can look this up for yourself. The thorns here are not just individual thorns on a plant. They are plants in and of themselves, like thistles.
Look at the verse:
Luke 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
--It is not plants having thorns that choked them. It is the thorns. Some of these plants can grow 20-30 feet high in the east. It is not referring to "thorns" on a rose bush. They are a kind of plant like a thistle.

You are correct, it is ANOTHER parable. It is not the same parable, and is not teaching the same thing.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

I am saying:
Simon "believed" and was not saved.

I disagree, he was saved, but like many Christians fell into temptation and sin.

The devils "believed" and are not saved.
I grew up as a Catholic and "believed" and yet was not saved. I believed that Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead. I knew about his sacrifice. I knew the facts. I "believed." I never herd the gospel, however. I never heard how those facts personally apply to me. The gospel is personal. It must be applied. In salvation there is a personal relationship, not just belief or acceptance of a set of facts. Most historians will accept and believe the facts. That doesn't make all historians saved.

Jesus did not die for the angels, there is no blood atonement for them. Jesus did not promise to save the angels.

As a Catholic, you believed FACTS about Jesus. You believed he was the Son of God, you believed he died on the cross and rose from the dead, but you DID NOT trust him to save you, you depended on your church, the sacraments, your good works, etc...

Like I said earlier, to trust Jesus means to commit yourself to him, like a person who leaps out of a building and completely trusts and depends on firemen to catch him and save his life.

I am not God nor claim to be:

How humble of you.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

If you do not know if you believed you are in bad shape. Folks in the NT knew when they had believed.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

NT saints understood what to believe means, it means to cast yourself on Jesus and depend on him to save you. You can know when you have done this, just as Jesus knew when he trusted his Father.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

That word "commend" means to entrust, or commit oneself to. Jesus allowed himself to die, completely depending and trusting his Father to raise him from the dead.

They hear but do not believe.

Jesus said the rocky soil believed. Live with it.

Not so.
They believe for a little while, meaning they mentally accept the facts. I did that in the RCC. I "believed." That wouldn't have helped had persecution come, would it?

Jesus said they believed, and Jesus knows what to believe means.

Unbelievers that show interest, but that is all. Their hearts are too "wrapped up" in the material things of this world to care about Christ.

And Christians get wrapped up in worldly things too.

No, it is about belief and unbelief. It is about the reasons for unbelief.

Wrong, it is about why they fell away from service and did not produce fruit. Jesus didn't say they perished, he said they brought no fruit to perfection. You are reading into scripture. AGAIN.

You are reading things into this parable, not I.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Good soil brings forth good fruit.
A good tree brings forth good fruit.

Fruit. Other Christians. Look on an apple tree, what do you see? More apples. Jesus is speaking of serving in the church and bringing people to Christ. He did not say the rocky and thorny soil perished, he said they did not bring forth fruit.

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Unrelated scriptures.

You have two problems. You cannot read with comprehension, and you continuously read into scripture what is not being said.

 

[DHK]

Fruit. Other Christians. Look on an apple tree, what do you see? More apples. Jesus is speaking of serving in the church and bringing people to Christ. He did not say the rocky and thorny soil perished, he said they did not bring forth fruit.

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


Unrelated scriptures.

You have two problems. You cannot read with comprehension, and you continuously read into scripture what is not being said.

Note well that a Christian bears fruit. If he bears no fruit; if his life has not changed; if the Holy Spirit has not wrought a change in his life, then he is not born again.
Regeneration requires change. Repentance requires change. The new birth requires change. Entering into a new family requires change. Becoming a new creature in Christ requires change.
If there is no change in a person then that person has not become a Christian. The change is called fruit. There is no such thing as a fruitless Christian.

Jesus spoke of the Pharisees and false teachers. He warned his disciples this way:
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Evil men will bring forth evil fruit.
The Christian will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

It is one or the other: good or evil; good or corrupt.
There is no neutral ground.
So it is in the parable. The first three soils are contaminated yielding forth corrupted fruit or no fruit.
Only one soil is good; only one soil gives forth good fruit.
In this Christ rejoices when he says:

Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
--Here alone does he rejoice in good fruit, much fruit.
There is no fruit in the other soils for it all has been corrupted.
Corruption yields corruption. It cannot yield good fruit. Therefore they are not saved.

 

[Winman]

If he truly believed....yes, and if his faith was genuine yes....
The entire argument is that he never really believed but made a profession only.
The writer, Luke, doesn't know what is in Simon's heart...he only knows the historical facts:

Getting late, this will probably be my last response tonight.

You and DHK say Simon did not believe, but the scriptures say he did.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

I believe what the scriptures SAY.

Do you not understand that many may "come forward" after seeing what others do, but they do not truly believe to salvation?

This is not Simon boasting he was a believer, the scriptures say he believed. I believe what the scriptures SAY.

Simon "believed" in the sense that after seeing what everyone else did, he made a profession and got baptized along with the lot of them, but he wasn't seeking salvation...he was seeking more powerful sorcery.

Nevertheless, the scripture says he believed.

HE NEVER STOPPED seeking greater sorcery. As DHK pointed out to you:
Even the devils "believe" and tremble
Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils cannot believe as we do, because they have no promise.

It's like this, let's say I said to you, I promise to send you a thousand dollars if you will PM me your address. I have set this money aside just for you. But I do not make this promise to DHK, nor do I set aside any money for him.

You have a promise from me. If you send me your PM, I am obligated to send you a thousand dollars. But if DHK sends me a PM, I am under no obligation to send him money, I did not promise him anything.

Jesus didn't die for the angels, he didn't shed blood for them, they have no blood. They can believe all they want to, won't do them a bit of good, just as DHK could believe I will send him a thousand dollars if he PMs me, and he is going to be disappointed. I didn't promise him anything, and I didn't set money aside for him.

This is why Limited Atonement is horrendous. If Jesus did not die for you, if he did not shed his blood for you, there is no forgiveness for you no matter what you believe. The promise to save is only for those he died for.

Your argument is based upon the use of the word "believe". But apparently, that mere word (so used) is not a 100% guarantor of salvation. Luke is reporting what he knows: he knows Simon made a profession at least and claimed to believe.

Simon has an atonement, Simon has a promise. If he believed, Jesus has obligated himself to save him.

The word of God says the devils "believe".

No promise, no atonement, no salvation. Their faith is VAIN.

According to Luke...he made a public profession:
After seeing that the people followed after his new competition.

Were you seeking more powerful forms of sorcery when you believed?
If not...
You're probably in the clear and will have no need to worry.

I don't think Simon got saved for power. I think he believed on Jesus, because that is what the scriptures say. Afterward, he saw the Holy Spirit being given by the laying on of hands (which proves men without the Spirit can believe), and this tempted him. Christians sin, Christians can be tempted like anyone else.

O.K....that's possible, but that's certainly only one issue in what I see to be a preponderance of evidences. However, I don't think Peter was threatening Simon with physical death. Notice Peter said Simon "MAY" be forgiven:
Act 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
That is NOT what you say to a true Christian...the promise to a true Christian is this:
1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is the GUARANTEE God has for all believers...
No may, can, perhaps, if, maybe about it.

I take it as perhaps God will not strike you physically dead.

Peter promised Simon no such thing: Peter PERCEIVED something about Simon that wasn't genuine.

Or perhaps....he was saying the 1st Century version of: "take your money and shove it"....
in his vernacular...
I don't think he was threatening Simon with physical death though.

I do. It was just like Ananias and Sapphira, they were saved, they were true believers, but they lied to God and God struck them dead. I believe this is what Peter was warning Simon about.

There ARE tares among the wheat right?
The tares were NEVER saved. But, it might loosely be said that they "believed" (or at least made a show of it) like everyone else.

Yes, but tares do not believe.

Either:
1.) Luke is simply reporting the facts as he knows them and there was at minimum a profession of belief....but a preponderance of evidence that Simon was no more a sheep than the man in the moon or...
2.) Luke was super-naturally inspired by the Holy Spirit to KNOW unquestionably what Simon's heart TRULY WAS and despite all the evidence, Luke has special inspiration straight from the Holy Spirit that no matter the fact that Simon is a sorceror (and remained one)...deep down, his faith was genuine and real.

I think you are assuming too much about the nature of inspiration of Scripture:
Rev 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
1Co 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Simon remained a sorceror and extortioner:

That's the preponderance of evidence given by Luke.

Well, we will have to disagree. The scriptures say Simon believed. They could have said he was a false believer as we see in Galatians.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

The scriptures do not say Simon was a false brother, they say he believed. And I am going to believe that.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Winman]

Note well that a Christian bears fruit. If he bears no fruit; if his life has not changed; if the Holy Spirit has not wrought a change in his life, then he is not born again.
Regeneration requires change. Repentance requires change. The new birth requires change. Entering into a new family requires change. Becoming a new creature in Christ requires change.
If there is no change in a person then that person has not become a Christian. The change is called fruit. There is no such thing as a fruitless Christian.

Lots of Christians do not bear fruit. They will receive no rewards, yet they will be saved so as by fire.

Jesus spoke of the Pharisees and false teachers. He warned his disciples this way:
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Evil men will bring forth evil fruit.

All men are evil, the Pharisees and false teachers do not believe, and so die in their sins.

We are not better than them, just forgiven.

The Christian will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

It is one or the other: good or evil; good or corrupt.
There is no neutral ground.

Everyone is different. Some folks study the Bible, pray, witness, go to church every time the door is open and lead many folks to Jesus.

Other folks are not as dedicated and bring forth little or no fruit. They are still saved if they trusted Jesus.

So it is in the parable. The first three soils are contaminated yielding forth corrupted fruit or no fruit.
Only one soil is good; only one soil gives forth good fruit.
In this Christ rejoices when he says:

Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
--Here alone does he rejoice in good fruit, much fruit.
There is no fruit in the other soils for it all has been corrupted.
Corruption yields corruption. It cannot yield good fruit. Therefore they are not saved.

You are oblivious to the word of God. It is not saying saying the rocky ground and thorny ground are lost. It says they bring forth no fruit to perfection. They do not bring others to Jesus.

The good soil are those who faithfully serve like my buddy and bring dozens of folks to Jesus.

You cannot distinguish between LIFE and FRUIT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Lots of Christians do not bear fruit. They will receive no rewards, yet they will be saved so as by fire.



All men are evil, the Pharisees and false teachers do not believe, and so die in their sins.

We are not better than them, just forgiven.



Everyone is different. Some folks study the Bible, pray, witness, go to church every time the door is open and lead many folks to Jesus.

Other folks are not as dedicated and bring forth little or no fruit. They are still saved if they trusted Jesus.



You are oblivious to the word of God. It is not saying saying the rocky ground and thorny ground are lost. It says they bring forth no fruit to perfection. They do not bring others to Jesus.

The good soil are those who faithfully serve like my buddy and bring dozens of folks to Jesus.

You cannot distinguish between LIFE and FRUIT.

Sinners who have been really born again MUST have some evidence to support that truth, or else its merely professing faith as many in this current age!

And God will protect his own, as he will will make sure that ALL the saved get to heaven, as he sealed us in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus intercedes as our high Priest!

I KNOW the Lord jesus saved me, as I believe in the promises of God regarding this truth, how about you?

 

[Winman]

Sinners who have been really born again MUST have some evidence to support that truth, or else its merely professing faith as many in this current age!

Not necessarily. David was a believer, yet he knowingly committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband killed in battle. Does that sound like good Christian behavior to you?

How about Solomon who built groves to false gods at the end of his life?

How about Samson, who left his wife, gambled, killed 30 innocent men to settle a lost bet and visited a prostitute on a regular basis? Does that sound like good Christian behavior to you?

And God will protect his own, as he will will make sure that ALL the saved get to heaven, as he sealed us in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus intercedes as our high Priest!

I KNOW the Lord jesus saved me, as I believe in the promises of God regarding this truth, how about you?

You have no idea if Jesus died for you. That is impossible, because you believe in Limited Atonement. You cannot tell anybody that Jesus died for them, or yourself.

Again, you can tell me you have the witness of the Spirit to prove you are saved, these folks will tell you the same thing.

 

[DHK]

Lots of Christians do not bear fruit. They will receive no rewards, yet they will be saved so as by fire.

If they bear absolutely no fruit it is doubtful they are saved. This, the Bible teaches. The Word took no root.
All men are evil, the Pharisees and false teachers do not believe, and so die in their sins.

We are not better than them, just forgiven.

"You shall know them by their fruit."
It was a reference to false teachers. In 1John 9-11 the directive was not to let such a one even come into your house, neither bid him "God-speed," or "Good-bye," (shortened form of "Good-be-with-ye")

Everyone is different. Some folks study the Bible, pray, witness, go to church every time the door is open and lead many folks to Jesus.

Other folks are not as dedicated and bring forth little or no fruit. They are still saved if they trusted Jesus.

Yes they are different: as different as night and day.
As different as corrupt fruit and good fruit. That is the comparison.
The comparison is between the saved and the unsaved.
A corrupt tree brings forth corrupt fruit. The context is false teachers.

Go down a few more verses in the same chapter:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--Yes everyone is different. Some will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

You are oblivious to the word of God. It is not saying saying the rocky ground and thorny ground are lost. It says they bring forth no fruit to perfection. They do not bring others to Jesus.

If they have no fruit they are not saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

So what happens here to those who bear no fruit?

 

[DHK]

Not necessarily. David was a believer, yet he knowingly committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband killed in battle. Does that sound like good Christian behavior to you?

David was a man after God's own heart. That is fruit.
He cast the demon out of Saul's heart. That is fruit.
There was fruit in his life. Are you blind to that.
No one said "sinlessness."

How about Solomon who built groves to false gods at the end of his life?

Don't be foolish. God gave Solomon wisdom in such abundance that aside from Jesus alone he was the wisest man that ever lived. That is fruit.
No man is sinless.

How about Samson, who left his wife, gambled, killed 30 innocent men to settle a lost bet and visited a prostitute on a regular basis? Does that sound like good Christian behavior to you?

Again and again Samson delivered Israel from the Philistines. He had trouble in the flesh. But there was fruit in his life. He was not speaking of sinlessness. Get your blinders off and get back to the topic. All of these are OT examples.

 

[DHK]

So what happens here to those who bear no fruit?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

You only quoted part of a verse, and that out of its context.
The Father's desire is fruit. He mentions that 8 times in this chapter. In verse 2 he desires "more fruit." In verses 5 and 8 it is "much fruit."
What are the branches that are being cut off in verse 2.
They bear no fruit. A branch that bears no fruit is dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off.
I just finished some pruning myself. I went and cut off all the dead branches from the tree standing in front of the house and then weeded out the dead branches from the bushes in the back of the house. They bore no fruit. They hinder the growth of the new buds or branches. The other purging (pruning) is to make those branches even more fruitful.
Branches that bear no fruit whatsoever are dead.

 

[Winman]

So what happens here to those who bear no fruit?

Oh, I know what you are looking for;

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I fully understand that you interpret this verse to say men who do not bear fruit are cast in the lake of fire, but that is not necessarily what Jesus is saying.

He is simply saying like fruit trees, those branches that do not bear fruit are broken off and thrown in a fire. They are rejected, they are castaways, God does not use these persons. This verse is similar to 1 Cor 9:27;

1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now, Paul can only mean two things here.

#1 He is teaching he could lose his salvation and be castaway.

#2 He is teaching he could disqualify himself as a minister of the Lord and be castaway.

I believe #2 is the correct answer, when we believe we are sealed unto the day of redemption, the Holy Spirit remains in us and we cannot fall away in utter unbelief.

But we can disqualify ourselves as servants or ministers. I believe this is what Paul is teaching, and also what Jesus is teaching in John 15:6. If we do not use our abilities and gifts that God gave us to serve him, he will take them away. It is like useless branches on a vine that are broken off and burned.

It is not teaching that you can lose salvation.

Anybody who believes a Christian who does not bear fruit goes to hell does not believe in Eternal Security. You are a flat out Arminian working your way to heaven.

 

[DHK]

Oh, I know what you are looking for;

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I fully understand that you interpret this verse to say men who do not bear fruit are cast in the lake of fire, but that is not necessarily what Jesus is saying.

He is simply saying like fruit trees, those branches that do not bear fruit are broken off and thrown in a fire. They are rejected, they are castaways, God does not use these persons. This verse is similar to 1 Cor 9:27;

I have already answered this for you. Read my answer.
Those that abide bear fruit.
Those that don't abide do not bear fruit. They are dead--unbelievers, and will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The context is clear:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

If one doesn't abide he is separated from the tree of life. He has no life. He is not saved. He is withered and without fruit. He is not saved.
The believer always abides; always bears fruit. The command for the believer is to abide in Christ, and he will abide. It is the mark of a believer.

1 Cor 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now, Paul can only mean two things here.

#1 He is teaching he could lose his salvation and be castaway.

#2 He is teaching he could disqualify himself as a minister of the Lord and be castaway.

I believe #2 is the correct answer, when we believe we are sealed unto the day of redemption, the Holy Spirit remains in us and we cannot fall away in utter unbelief.

But we can disqualify ourselves as servants or ministers. I believe this is what Paul is teaching, and also what Jesus is teaching in John 15:6. If we do not use our abilities and gifts that God gave us to serve him, he will take them away. It is like useless branches on a vine that are broken off and burned.

It is not teaching that you can lose salvation.

Anybody who believes a Christian who does not bear fruit goes to hell does not believe in Eternal Security. You are a flat out Arminian working your way to heaven.

It has only one interpretation--a correct interpretation. There is no such thing as losing your salvation. Paul would disqualify himself or set himself on the shelf as a servant of God. He could lose reward, but not salvation.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

What are the branches that are being cut off in verse 2.
They bear no fruit. A branch that bears no fruit is dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off.

I believe you need to reexamine your conclusion here, primarily because very nearly all the popular translations get the Greek airo wrong. It is not "takes away" (e.g., NASB) but "lifts up," or "pick up" and even "bear up." In certain contexts it can mean "lift up to be carried away," but not in John 15. See, for example, Matthew 4:6; Matthew 9:6; Matthew 11:29; Matthew 14:12; Matthew 14:20; Matthew 15:37; Matthew 16:24; Matthew 17:27; Matthew 20:14; Matthew 21:21; Matthew 21:43; Matthew 24:17-18; Matthew 24:39; Matthew 25:28-29; Matthew 27:32. Those are just 17 of the 97 usages in the New Testament, and though there are two other passages where the word has been translated "take away," it is due to the context that the usage is proper in those cases.

It's literal meaning in the John 15 context is to lift from the ground. Any vineyard is a perfect place to get the illustration of this. I went to a winery in St. James, Missouri some years ago and was stunned by what happened, as I had just read a study espousing this view. It was the morning after severe thunderstorms had rolled through, and a vineyard worker was moving through the vineyard with a soft-bristled brush and a bucket of soapy water.

At every vine where he encountered a branch lying in the mud beneath the trellises, he lifted it up, gently washed the mud and dirty water off of it with the brush, and then loosely tied it back into the trellis where it could grow and produce. It is assured of growing among pruned branches that are producing fruit, and being able to continue abiding in the vine.

This is exactly what Jesus is referring to in v. 2, in that the believer who does not bear fruit is not cut off, but is encouraged to grow and produce. Unless you believe one can lose his/her salvation, you cannot possibly view v. 2 as teaching that those in Christ will be "cut off." That is what is implied in such an erroneous view.

In v. 6, Jesus clearly delineates between the unfruitful living branch vs. the branch that does not abide in the vine. The latter will be thrown away -- ballo exo in the Greek -- and cast into the fire.

Careful exegesis often leads to the discovery of error. That's why it's a good idea to buy a good lexicon to use in daily Bible study.

 

[Winman]

I have already answered this for you. Read my answer.
Those that abide bear fruit.
Those that don't abide do not bear fruit. They are dead--unbelievers, and will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The context is clear:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

If one doesn't abide he is separated from the tree of life. He has no life. He is not saved. He is withered and without fruit. He is not saved.

You say all sorts of things, that doesn't make them so.

You are overlooking a very important verse, that shows these persons ARE saved.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

These persons are saved, they are "in Christ".

The believer always abides; always bears fruit. The command for the believer is to abide in Christ, and he will abide. It is the mark of a believer.


It has only one interpretation--a correct interpretation. There is no such thing as losing your salvation. Paul would disqualify himself or set himself on the shelf as a servant of God. He could lose reward, but not salvation.

No, the believer does not always abide. That is what the parable of the soils shows, some fall away because of persecution, some are distracted by the world. They bear no fruit.

These persons are not lost, but God will take away their abilities and gifts, they are castaways as Paul warned.

They are like useless branches that bear no fruit. But they were alive, they were saved, they did not wither until they were broken off. And then they were burned. They were rejected from service.

 

[Winman]

Not only did Jesus say these persons are "in me", he said they were "clean".

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

These persons are saved. They are "in me" in verse 2, and Jesus says they are "clean" in vs. 3.

So, why would he warn a believer to "abide in me" if it were not possible for this person to not abide in him? Nonsensical.

This, like the parable of the soils is speaking of service and bearing fruit, not salvation.

The only other alternative is to reject Eternal Security.

 

[Winman]

I believe you need to reexamine your conclusion here, primarily because very nearly all the popular translations get the Greek airo wrong. It is not "takes away" (e.g., NASB) but "lifts up," or "pick up" and even "bear up." In certain contexts it can mean "lift up to be carried away," but not in John 15. See, for example, Matthew 4:6; Matthew 9:6; Matthew 11:29; Matthew 14:12; Matthew 14:20; Matthew 15:37; Matthew 16:24; Matthew 17:27; Matthew 20:14; Matthew 21:21; Matthew 21:43; Matthew 24:17-18; Matthew 24:39; Matthew 25:28-29; Matthew 27:32. Those are just 17 of the 97 usages in the New Testament, and though there are two other passages where the word has been translated "take away," it is due to the context that the usage is proper in those cases.

It's literal meaning in the John 15 context is to lift from the ground. Any vineyard is a perfect place to get the illustration of this. I went to a winery in St. James, Missouri some years ago and was stunned by what happened, as I had just read a study espousing this view. It was the morning after severe thunderstorms had rolled through, and a vineyard worker was moving through the vineyard with a soft-bristled brush and a bucket of soapy water.

At every vine where he encountered a branch lying in the mud beneath the trellises, he lifted it up, gently washed the mud and dirty water off of it with the brush, and then loosely tied it back into the trellis where it could grow and produce. It is assured of growing among pruned branches that are producing fruit, and being able to continue abiding in the vine.

This is exactly what Jesus is referring to in v. 2, in that the believer who does not bear fruit is not cut off, but is encouraged to grow and produce. Unless you believe one can lose his/her salvation, you cannot possibly view v. 2 as teaching that those in Christ will be "cut off." That is what is implied in such an erroneous view.

In v. 6, Jesus clearly delineates between the unfruitful living branch vs. the branch that does not abide in the vine. The latter will be thrown away -- ballo exo in the Greek -- and cast into the fire.

Careful exegesis often leads to the discovery of error. That's why it's a good idea to buy a good lexicon to use in daily Bible study.

Yes, in verse 3 Jesus says these persons are CLEAN. They are saved.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

It's a good idea not to already have your mind made up what scripture says before you read it too.

 

[DHK]

I believe you need to reexamine your conclusion here, primarily because very nearly all the popular translations get the Greek airo wrong. It is not "takes away" (e.g., NASB) but "lifts up," or "pick up" and even "bear up." In certain contexts it can mean "lift up to be carried away," but not in John 15. See, for example, Matthew 4:6; Matthew 9:6; Matthew 11:29; Matthew 14:12; Matthew 14:20; Matthew 15:37; Matthew 16:24; Matthew 17:27; Matthew 20:14; Matthew 21:21; Matthew 21:43; Matthew 24:17-18; Matthew 24:39; Matthew 25:28-29; Matthew 27:32. Those are just 17 of the 97 usages in the New Testament, and though there are two other passages where the word has been translated "take away," it is due to the context that the usage is proper in those cases.

"In certain cases." In this case I believe you are wrong. Almost every translation I look at is similar to the KJV--everyone that I have in fact:

(ASV) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

(CEV) He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. But he trims clean every branch that does produce fruit, so that it will produce even more fruit.

(Darby) As to every branch in me not bearing fruit, he takes it away; and as to every one bearing fruit, he purges it that it may bring forth more fruit.

(DRB) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

(EMTV) Every branch in Me which does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch which bears fruit He prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.

(ESV) Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

(Geneva) Euery branch that beareth not fruite in me, he taketh away: and euery one that beareth fruite, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruite.

(GW) He removes every one of my branches that doesn't produce fruit. He also prunes every branch that does produce fruit to make it produce more fruit.

(ISV) He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit.

(KJV) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

(LITV) Every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He takes it away; and each one bearing fruit, He prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.

(MKJV) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away. And every one that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bring forth more fruit.

(WNT) Every branch in me--if it bears no fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

(YLT) every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;

Even a smattering of commentaries say the same thing: John MacArthur, Walvoord and Zuck, and others.

It's literal meaning in the John 15 context is to lift from the ground. Any vineyard is a perfect place to get the illustration of this. I went to a winery in St. James, Missouri some years ago and was stunned by what happened, as I had just read a study espousing this view. It was the morning after severe thunderstorms had rolled through, and a vineyard worker was moving through the vineyard with a soft-bristled brush and a bucket of soapy water.

At every vine where he encountered a branch lying in the mud beneath the trellises, he lifted it up, gently washed the mud and dirty water off of it with the brush, and then loosely tied it back into the trellis where it could grow and produce. It is assured of growing among pruned branches that are producing fruit, and being able to continue abiding in the vine.

This is exactly what Jesus is referring to in v. 2, in that the believer who does not bear fruit is not cut off, but is encouraged to grow and produce. Unless you believe one can lose his/her salvation, you cannot possibly view v. 2 as teaching that those in Christ will be "cut off." That is what is implied in such an erroneous view.

My view is not erroneous. Your interpretation comes from your North American experience of a modern day winery. They didn't have such things back then, and Christ didn't paint such a picture. I am a missionary and lived in Asia, in a third world nation, and we did have a grapevine and it did have dead branches which had to be taken away. They were attached to the vine but without life. That is what Christ is speaking of.

What does it picture?
The same picture is given in Luke 8:13.
The same is given in Math.7:22-24
The same is given in 1 John 2:19.
--It pictures a professing Christian who never genuinely believed. He never had life in the first place. He is cut off and thrown into the lake of fire.
The same lifeless branch in verse 2 is the same lifeless branch in verse 6:

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
--He ends up in the lake of fire. Many of them don't even have to be cut off. They just fall to the ground of their own accord.

In v. 6, Jesus clearly delineates between the unfruitful living branch vs. the branch that does not abide in the vine. The latter will be thrown away -- ballo exo in the Greek -- and cast into the fire.

Same branch as verse 2--both had no fruit; both were dead.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Careful exegesis often leads to the discovery of error. That's why it's a
good idea to buy a good lexicon to use in daily Bible study.

My exegesis was careful. I paid attention to the context.
Context rules.