Well I would say first your personal interpretation of that is unorthodox.
I know of no one who would say that. What I would say is although they may claim to be a Christian it does not mean they are.
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Once Saved Always Saved
- Thread starter IAMWEAK_2007
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Well I would say first your personal interpretation of that is unorthodox.
I know of no one who would say that. What I would say is although they may claim to be a Christian it does not mean they are.
I would have thought by now that it would be obvious that I am not real concerned about being "orthodox". I care what the scriptures SAY.
These are saved persons Jesus is warning, look carefully.
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
These are saved persons, they are "in me" verse 2, and they are "clean through the word I have spoken unto you". These are born-again Christians, and these are the persons Jesus is warning to abide in him and bear fruit, or they will be cast forth and burned.
You have two options.
#1 Jesus is teaching a Christian can lose salvation.
#2 Jesus is speaking of service here, bearing fruit, not salvation. If a person does not abide in him and bear fruit, he will be rejected, a castaway as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9.
Jesus is not speaking to unbelievers here, but believers.
Of course they are and they does not change what I said.
Two options, eh?
Who made you the sole arbitrator of Scripture? God?
I don't think so; I know so!! (that he didn't)!
I gave you the correct interpretation. It isn't either of your two choices, so obviously it is the correct one. I gave you supporting Scripture. You haven't explained that either.
What about these professing Christians. Can you explain them too:
Mat 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
They believed!
They called Jesus Lord.
They did works in His name. (read "in me")
They too will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Why?
No, they DID NOT believe on Jesus, they believed on their own good works. They claimed that they prophesied in Jesus's name, that they cast out devils in Jesus's name, and that they did many WONDERFUL WORKS in Jesus's name.
They did not depend on Jesus and Jesus alone to save them. This is what it means to believe in Jesus.
They trusted in their own good works.
Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God, they believe he died on the cross and rose from the dead, but they don't believe on Jesus to save them, they believe in their church, their sacraments, and their good works.
Ask any Catholic why they should go to heaven and they will tell you the same thing those persons in Matthew 7 said, that they did many wonderful WORKS.
I think a lot of folks here do not know what it means to "believe ON Jesus". It means to cast yourself on him in utter dependence and depend upon him alone to save you.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Well, I'm not. How's that?
You didn't do any "exegesis," you posted the numerous translations that do just as my favorite, the NASB, does: They get it wrong.
If you and those translations "paid attention to context" you would have backed off and questioned how you could possibly endorse a rendering that implies "lost salvation," which is precisely what that incorrect translation does.
You're absolutely right. Since Jesus identifies Himself in the passage as "the true Vine" that requires the "branches" to be seen as believers. Therefore, any rendering that states "cut off" or "take away" incorrectly teaches that believers can be "cut off" or "taken away" from Christ, which is heresy.
No, no , no, DHK, you're wrong again. Context demands it be read as I've stated. You've not been careful of exegesis, you've chosen to make the verse fit what you believe without considering the unintended consequences of that conclusion. That's commonly called "eisegesis" and is poor scholarship leading to poor theology. And poor theology is exactly what "lost salvation" is. :BangHead:
Just because most Bible translators have rendered it incorrectly is no reason to continue to do so. There are two things that the Father (v. 1 identifies Him as "the Vinedresser," and that is who the man I saw at the winery was) is said to do in His care of the vine.
First, He is said to "take away" every branch that does not bear fruit. Generally this has been understood to be a purging away of dead branches in precisely the same sense that branches are said to be "cast forth" and "burned" in verse 6, but most translations have missed the true meaning of the term airo in this instance. Undoubtedly, their translation has been made to conform to what they know or believe is coming in v. 6, but the translation is not the best or even the most general meaning of the Greek word which lies behind it. The word airo has four basic meanings, which are, proceeding from the most fundamental to the most figurative:
- to lift up or pick up,
- to lift up figuratively, as in lifting up one's eyes or voice,
- to lift up with the added thought of lifting up in order to carry away, and
- to remove.
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Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:
A branch that does not bear fruit is a dead branch. It is henceforth cast into the fire to be burned. This branch will never bear fruit. It is dead. There is nothing about this branch being tied up. You are reading that into this passage. It is eisigesis based on modern day technology of your own experience.
Dead branches (non-fruit bearing branches) were cut off.
Robertson:
Barnes:
John MacArthur and Walvoord and Zuck say essentially the same thing--that those that are cut away are professing Christians; that their faith was not genuine.
This is what is taught elsewhere: Luke 6:13; 1John 2:19; Mat.7:21-23, etc.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
An utterly false and misinformed statement that indicates the one making it knows nothing about horticulture. If you're going to attempt to understand an horticultural/agricultural allegory, you'd better get some understanding of the reference. You have none.
There are many reasons a branch doesn't produce fruit. For example, it is said that in a vineyard that the branches have a tendency to grow downward along the surface of the ground. This is a different scenario to the one I saw in St. James. Next to the ground, the leaves get dust or mud on them and they don't get the sunlight or oxygen that is needed for plant to produce fruit. The branches are still connected to the vine, but going their own way. The vine dresser desires that they produce fruit.
Jesus desires everyone in Him produces fruit. If he cuts them off, He certainly will not get any fruit. Instead, as with the vinedresser "lifting up" the branches, supporting them, and washing off the dirty or muddy leaves so they may receive the sunlight and oxygen that is needed so that they may produce fruit, just so, Jesus picks us up out of the dirt, propping us up in love, and cleansing us with the Word. Your assumption the branches are dead is incorrect, and is an assumption that is made only out of a desire to make the passage say what it does not say. There is nothing in the passage to indicate "dead" branches.
In v. 2, they are described as klema, a tender, flexible branch. "Tender" and "flexible" doesn't describe "dead." They are very much alive. Jesus is emphasizing the connection between the vine -- Himself, the "trunk" -- and the branches. Jesus is the source of life and the source of fruitfulness. The person who has a continual intimate fellowship with Jesus will produce much fruit. Apart from that fellowship with Jesus, we will not produce fruit no matter how hard we try or how much we work at it. That is not an indication we are "dead," any more than there is any word in the John 15 passage confirming the branches are dead, not until you get to v. 6.
We can be alive in Christ and produce no fruit, though your theology wants to convince you that is impossible, just as it wants to convince you that persistent sin is impossible in Christ. But that's another thread. We can read the Bible, study it in the different languages, and sit under many different teachers and still not have fellowship with God the Father. We can pray until we are blue in the face and still not have fellowship with Jesus. We can obey all the laws and still not have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Why?
Because we hinder our own sanctification. We let the trials and troubles of life interfere with our growth, and we sometimes as believers seem to think that reading the Bible, praying, sit under great teachers, etc., is sufficient to bring us fellowship in Him. That's just plain wrong. We require continual intimate fellowship and bearing fruit to have true fellowship. This passage is not talking about dead branches, and it has nothing to do with losing your salvation (relationship) and going to hell. That's heretical, and it certainly doesn't measure up to Baptist beliefs.
To imply that this verse is pointing to one losing one's life in Christ is a major contradiction to the clear teaching of other clear Scripture concerning the eternal life that one has in Christ, and DHK, that's what you're doing. you don't understand the passage, yet you insist that others see it as you do. And you're dead wrong.
Yet again, citing "teachers" who spend more time promoting their theology than the actual word of God is not "proper exegesis." I really don't care what men say about the passage. They have an agenda to promote that theology, not an agenda to promote proper understanding. Their theology fails. One must take the passage for what it says in the original languages, and what is says is exactly how I've exegeted it. You don't agree, that's fine. It's no skin off my nose. But you really fail to have an understanding here, and you need to reconsider what you've let others spoon-feed you.
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
I have to agree with R.N.D. and Winman here:
1.) He is speaking to disciples of his...it makes no sense to threaten them with damnation
vs. 3
Jhn 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
2.) They "ARE" the branches:
no branch which ever was in the vine can lose it's salvation....
3.) Notice the part about "casting into the fire" is spoken of something that Men do (it's useless)...not some judgement God is making (or specifically the husbandman)
4.) The ENTIRE context is bearing fruit, not salvation. It is rarely DEAD branches that are actually pruned...they could actually sprout. You prune because TOO MANY branches will try to compete and any individual node will grow less and lower quality fruit....When you prune a vine you are MAXIMIZING it's efficiency...not cutting off dead nodes. In fact, it is LIVING nodes that are usually cut off...Just as Jesus says in vese 6.
Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Two things in verse 6:
1.) Jesus is simplying saying that MEN (not God) burn the unused branches...
2.) After pruning....it withers...it can't have been once-alive and now dead....That would prove that OSAS is false, and we could lose our salvation.
This is how pruning grape vines works. Probably 80% of all nodes are ultimately pruned... but not because they aren't viable. Theoretically, any decent node could be planted and become ANOTHER vine....but Jesus has just stated that HE (and he alone) is the "True vine". So, no alternative "True vines" are possible. Producers plant only ONE vine in the ground and then train the branches like "T" shape on trellisses. Jesus is that planted vine.
Interestingly, the BEST vines are often pruned, because they will bear less fruit as they age....New nodes need to produce as the older branches begin to age....they will ultimately cease to bear fruit altogether, even though they are hardly dead. They're healthy....they just cease fruit-bearing over time, which is why they sprout NEW nodes.
The context of the passage and some reflecting on why, and how a husbandman prunes is (IMO) sufficient to say this is not a matter of truly saved vs. unsaved persons: But an encouragement to continue in Christ (to abide is the word used here) so that they maximize their fruitfulness.
1.) He is speaking to disciples of his...it makes no sense to threaten them with damnation
vs. 3
Jhn 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
2.) They "ARE" the branches:
no branch which ever was in the vine can lose it's salvation....
3.) Notice the part about "casting into the fire" is spoken of something that Men do (it's useless)...not some judgement God is making (or specifically the husbandman)
4.) The ENTIRE context is bearing fruit, not salvation. It is rarely DEAD branches that are actually pruned...they could actually sprout. You prune because TOO MANY branches will try to compete and any individual node will grow less and lower quality fruit....When you prune a vine you are MAXIMIZING it's efficiency...not cutting off dead nodes. In fact, it is LIVING nodes that are usually cut off...Just as Jesus says in vese 6.
Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Two things in verse 6:
1.) Jesus is simplying saying that MEN (not God) burn the unused branches...
2.) After pruning....it withers...it can't have been once-alive and now dead....That would prove that OSAS is false, and we could lose our salvation.
This is how pruning grape vines works. Probably 80% of all nodes are ultimately pruned... but not because they aren't viable. Theoretically, any decent node could be planted and become ANOTHER vine....but Jesus has just stated that HE (and he alone) is the "True vine". So, no alternative "True vines" are possible. Producers plant only ONE vine in the ground and then train the branches like "T" shape on trellisses. Jesus is that planted vine.
Interestingly, the BEST vines are often pruned, because they will bear less fruit as they age....New nodes need to produce as the older branches begin to age....they will ultimately cease to bear fruit altogether, even though they are hardly dead. They're healthy....they just cease fruit-bearing over time, which is why they sprout NEW nodes.
The context of the passage and some reflecting on why, and how a husbandman prunes is (IMO) sufficient to say this is not a matter of truly saved vs. unsaved persons: But an encouragement to continue in Christ (to abide is the word used here) so that they maximize their fruitfulness.
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
In verses 1 and 2 Christ sets the scene for a parable. In verse 3 he begins to make application as he addresses his disciples.
In verse two there is a distinction made; a contrast to be seen.
There are branches that bear no fruit, dead, good for nothing; they are to be taken away, and eventually burned (verse 6).
Then there are branches that bear some fruit. The husbandman desires more fruit. Therefore he prunes them (not the previous branches). These branches are pruned "that they may bring forth more fruit."
The former branches are simply taken away. And indeed they are taken away. To rely on one translation of the Bible for an alternate meaning of the word is nonsense.
What does the word "airw" mean?
First of all it is a word that is used 102 times in the NT.
Of those 102 times only 4 times does it have the meaning "lift up."
32 times it is translated "take up."
25 times it is translated "take away."
25 more times it is simply translated as "take."
5 times it is translated as "away with."
3 times it is translated as "bear."
Then there are 8 miscellaneous translations ranging from: to make one doubt to put away.
Of 102 times only 4 are translated "lift up" and yet that is what tmd would have us believe is the correct rendering. It is not.
The branches are taken away, and as verse 6 indicates they are burned.
I agree with MacArthur (even if he is a Calvinist)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
In verses 1 and 2 Christ sets the scene for a parable. In verse 3 he begins to make application as he addresses his disciples.
In verse two there is a distinction made; a contrast to be seen.
There are branches that bear no fruit, dead, good for nothing; they are to be taken away, and eventually burned (verse 6).
Then there are branches that bear some fruit. The husbandman desires more fruit. Therefore he prunes them (not the previous branches). These branches are pruned "that they may bring forth more fruit."
The former branches are simply taken away. And indeed they are taken away. To rely on one translation of the Bible for an alternate meaning of the word is nonsense.
What does the word "airw" mean?
First of all it is a word that is used 102 times in the NT.
Of those 102 times only 4 times does it have the meaning "lift up."
32 times it is translated "take up."
25 times it is translated "take away."
25 more times it is simply translated as "take."
5 times it is translated as "away with."
3 times it is translated as "bear."
Then there are 8 miscellaneous translations ranging from: to make one doubt to put away.
Of 102 times only 4 are translated "lift up" and yet that is what tmd would have us believe is the correct rendering. It is not.
The branches are taken away, and as verse 6 indicates they are burned.
from John MacArthur.
I agree with MacArthur (even if he is a Calvinist)
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Jhn 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. Jhn 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jhn 15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Verses 8-11 is Jesus explaining to his very saved disciples (whom he has no need to threaten), why he is creating this allegory. It has nothing whatsoever to do with distinguishing between false converts and real ones...but those who will bear much fruit vs. ones with little or none.
He assumes his audience are those that are "in him"...the unsaved are never "in him"....
Would Jesus say to the damned "As the Father loved me, so have I loved YOU"?
I'm sorry, but MacArthur is just wrong...he is assuming you prune dead branches.....but people who are familiar with husbandry (and they were)...know that a pruning is NOT an issue of cutting off DEAD vines...it's just not.
If, for instance you have a perfectly healthy node more than 6-8 ft. away from the trunk...a husbandman will prune you That's too FAR AWAY from the "true vine" or trunk! If you bore fruit the previous year, you will probably be pruned.
MacArthur is making horticultural assumptions which are simply wrong....Husbandmen do their pruning once a year in the winter...there are NO LEAVES, NO FRUIT any where on the vine, and there's NO way to even KNOW if the nodes you prune are alive or dead....the WHOLE THING looks dead. It's dormant.
This entire explanation hinges upon a mistaken assumption that pruning is done to eradicate withered sprouts from the green fruit-bearing ones...that's not how it's done. The whole vine looks like a dead lifeless stick.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. Jhn 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jhn 15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Verses 8-11 is Jesus explaining to his very saved disciples (whom he has no need to threaten), why he is creating this allegory. It has nothing whatsoever to do with distinguishing between false converts and real ones...but those who will bear much fruit vs. ones with little or none.
He assumes his audience are those that are "in him"...the unsaved are never "in him"....
Would Jesus say to the damned "As the Father loved me, so have I loved YOU"?
I'm sorry, but MacArthur is just wrong...he is assuming you prune dead branches.....but people who are familiar with husbandry (and they were)...know that a pruning is NOT an issue of cutting off DEAD vines...it's just not.
If, for instance you have a perfectly healthy node more than 6-8 ft. away from the trunk...a husbandman will prune you That's too FAR AWAY from the "true vine" or trunk! If you bore fruit the previous year, you will probably be pruned.
MacArthur is making horticultural assumptions which are simply wrong....Husbandmen do their pruning once a year in the winter...there are NO LEAVES, NO FRUIT any where on the vine, and there's NO way to even KNOW if the nodes you prune are alive or dead....the WHOLE THING looks dead. It's dormant.
This entire explanation hinges upon a mistaken assumption that pruning is done to eradicate withered sprouts from the green fruit-bearing ones...that's not how it's done. The whole vine looks like a dead lifeless stick.
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John 6:37-39 establishes the doctrine of once saved always saved in a context that is irrefutable. Jesus says clearly that "none" shall be lost "OF ALL" that the Father gave him - "none"! Period, end of story. So once saved always saved is a Biblical doctrine.
Concerning Matthew 13 and the parables within that chapter, the reason why so many are so wrong in their interpretation is because they do not under the overall context in which this chapter is found. From as early as Matthew 9, there is a context of rejection of Christ and John the Baptist by the leaders and majority of Israel. Even at the close of Matthew 13 there is rejection of Christ by his home town and family. It is in this clear context of rejection by PROFESSED PEOPLE OF GOD that Jesus provides these parables to explain why PROFESSING people of God reject Him and His Word. Internaly some don't have the right kind of heart. Externally there are false professors with these three kinds of wrong hearts. Spiritually, Satan is at work in the professing kingdom. Even someone who is blind in one eye and deaf in one ear should be able to see and understand that the primary parable of the tares is a parable about FALSE PROFESSORS (TARES) AND TRUE BELIEVERS (SEED).
The parable of the four soils is simple and clear. All four are said to have received the seed. The different soils represent the different conditions of the human heart. The only soil that is called "good" by Jesus is the fourth soil and within that fourth soil are all conditions of saved persons (some.....some....some....). The other three soils are conditions of the heart of false professors. There are false professors whose hearts are hard against the word. There are false professors who are FLAKY superficial but have NO ROOT. There are false professors that give no preeminence to the Word in their heart and so their lives reveal their true spiritual state.
John 15 and the metaphor of the vine has to do with living the abundant Christian life or "in Christ" experientially. The key here is "without me ye can do nothing." This is not about getting saved, or remaining saved, or losing salvation but about the LIFE being saved or lost or being made to count, produce fruit for the glory of God. The "life" can be lost (1 Cor. 3:15).
There are persons on this forum tha no amount of evidence can change as they simply do no have ears to hear and so arguing with them is a waste of engery and time.
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His audience is primarily his disciples. But as it was in the sermon on the mount, there are others listening.
First, Jesus distinctly said in verse 6 that they would be thrown into the fire. You seem to neglect that fact. Yes, the unsaved are involved unless you are teaching purgatory.
Second, as is typical in Israel and other nations in the east, Jesus is speaking of a typical vineyard of about a 1/4 acre in size and not much bigger.
You are reading into this parable your North American culture and trying to interpret by your own American experiences, culture and climate. That is wrong.
When I was a missionary in a similar climate for example, it never went below freezing. I showed a picture of what it was like here in the winter to those living there. They were astonished. All the deciduous trees here were totally barren; a stark contrast against the rest of the landscape. What a barren landscape it was.
It is never like that in Israel nor where I was. The trees always have leaves. They never totally fall. Your interpretation is wrong--even agriculturally wrong.
There are hundreds of different kinds of grapes and therefore wines. Jesus used the word "vine" purposely. There was no "trunk," as there are in many commercial vineyards. We had a grapevine that grew up the side of our house when we were in Asia. It was small but it was there. It was never completely barren. That is not to say it bore fruit all year long; it didn't.
To use another example, now we have evergreen trees here. It certainly is easy to tell the dead branches from those that aren't. It always is. It is easy to differentiate a dead branch from one that is not dead. If you don't have that ability you should not work in agriculture.
You can't force your North American ideas of the climate and vineyards into the picture that Christ was drawing in Israel. It is apples and oranges.
You need to read the parable again. It's not a parable of 4 soils, it is a parable of ONE path, and THREE soils. Jesus never once said that the path received the seed, only the 3 soils received it
Matth 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow;
those beside the road:
4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
See Mark 4:4, 15 where Jesus said that this seed fell ALONG THE PATH, never reaching the soil
first soil:
5 Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6 But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
They receive the word with joy, and believe for a while (Luke 8:13).
second soil:
7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
third soil:
8 And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
There are only three soils represented. The path was not soil, and is the only one about which Jesus said the word was snatched away so that he would not believe and be saved.
And Jesus' obvious implication is that the one who believes is saved. And this is said of the first soil, that he believed. So the first soil, which received the word with joy and believed only for a little while, was saved, is saved, and will be in heaven when he dies
Inspector Javert
Active Member
The "way" is just another form of soil - hardened soil by traffic. There were no paved roads in Israel. All four types of soil represent one thing, the "heart" and the first soil is about "his heart" just as the following three other types of soils represent a "heart" condition.
The first kind of soil - hardened, represents a type of soil just as much as the other three.
The fourth soil is a complete reverse of the previous three; instead of hardened, it is broken up, instead of rocky and shallow is it furrowed deed, instead of weeds it is completely
plowed under.
These are four types of heart conditions and only the fourth respresents true believers. Within the fouth there are a variety "some....some.....some...."
The first soil - hardened, is said that the birds take it from the "heart" showing it is another condition of soil - hardened, this is the type of professor that sits in the congregation but everything goes right over their head, nothing sticks, they can be in a church for 40 years and still not understand the a,b,c's. They never talk about God's word but there purely for social, traditional reasons.
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You aren't reading the text. Jesus said "soil" only of the last 3. He never called the path "soil", because soil was not hard, trampled, impenetrable dirt. In His story, soil is dirt that a seed can penetrate. And it penetrated the rocky soil and got scorched - because there wasn't much soil. That alone should tell you that the path is not soil.
You'll search in vain for any notion of "true" believer. Sounds cute to the self appointed fruit inspectors, but thoroughly antiscriptural fabrication.
Or, from my experience in talking with those who have this so-called "spurious" faith, I would lay the blame at the feet of those who confuse faith and works. Those who attach their own brand of "evidence" to supposedly "true" belief.
It's a perverted brand of works based righteousness, whereby each one is looking to see if he's good enough to "make it" to heaven. And faith in Christ is reduced to works.
FACT ONE: The first type of ground is explicity said to be a description of a person's heart:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
1. This is a person "any one" "this is he"
2. The is a person who "received seed"
3. The ground upon which the seed fell is "HIS HEART"
4. The ground is explicitly described as "the way side" (packed ground) just as the next three types of ground are explicitly described (stony ground, weedy ground).
You cannot reasonably or rationally deny the other three soils are not persons as well, or did not receive the seed either and the other three soils are their "hearts" just as the first type of soil is explicitly said to be "his heart." The "bad" qualities of the first three hearts are explicitly stated so that you don't even have to guess - just read it.
1. No penetration - heart one - no understanding
2. No depth - heart two - no perseverance and ultimate apostacy from root upwards
3. No fruit or room - heart three - no priority
All of these represent BAD hearts with BAD defects - the hearts of tares in the next parable, the bad fish in the parable of the net (note gospel net brings in BAD fish).
FACT TWO: Only the fourth ground is said to be "good":
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
This is the only "GOOD" heart, meaning the others are types of a "BAD" heart and in the context Jesus is providing reasons why the multitudes, the leaders, and his own family and home town reject His word, reject him - the Word and it is due to a HEART PROBLEM (then a counterfeit seed problem and then a spiritual problem - Satan). The "good" qualities are those stated contrasts with the previous three, just read them.
1. understanding unlike heart one
2. perseverance unlike heart two
3. fruitfulness unlike heart three
FACT THREE: Only the fourth type of ground represents "good" hearts that characterize saved people who produce different degrees of fruit and this is the only heart said to produce fruit at all.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The words "some....some.....some" demand that such a heart is found in a plurality of people but the fruit production differs one person to the next.
Not one of the other hearts bring forth "fruit" - nada, none!
This heart is found in true children of God which manifests itself by fruit in different degrees. This kind of heart is represented in the next parable as the "seed" of the kingdom while the other three types of heart are representative of the "tares." It is the characteristics of this "good" heart that provides the ability to "hear" the truth. In context the crowds, leaders who were rejecting Christ did so because of a HEART PROBLEM and these rejectors can be characterized by these three types of bad hearts.
The inserted explanation between this parable and the interpretation of the parable confirms that Jesus is speaking about TWO different types of people represented by the FOUR different hearts.
1. Those who DO NOT have ears to hear and and eyes to see thus are incapable of understanding (first three hearts)
but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
2. Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see and thus WHEN they are given the truth do understand. (fourth heart)
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
The kind of heart a person has determines their ability to hear and see spiritual truth:
Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you AN HEART to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Hence, he is speaking about only TWO kinds of people (false professors and true professors) and giving his disciples insights on the various manifestations of bad hearts in false professors (Lost professors hearts are manifest in their rejection of the Word of God due to (1) lack of understanding, (2) lack of perseverance and depth and rejection of root upward; (3) lack of priority;
FACT FOUR: All four types of ground including the first, are said to have "received" the word. Just as the "tares" do in the next and primary parable - they are counterfit professers - tares - whose hearts have not been made "good" by the work of the Holy Spirit in connection with the Word. In Context, the rejectors of Christ were the PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD - The Jews - THE PROFESSING KINGDOM OF GOD but were rejecting Christ and His Word while PROFESSING TO BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD and PROFESSING TO BE THE PEOPLE OF GOD.
1. Heart one - "received the seed" - v. 19
2. Heart two - "received" - v. 20
3. Heart three - "received" - v. 22
4. Heart four - "received" - v. 23
Four hearts, four different types of soil (hardened, shallow, weedy, good) but only ONE produces fruit and that is the "GOOD" heart/soil.
FACT FIVE: This chapter and its parables are devoted to His disciples to help them understand and be prepared (vv. 51-52) why the PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD are rejecting Christ and His Word. If they understand these parables they will be PREPARED to deal with false professors and discern the evidences of false professors. Rejection by the PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD is due to:
1. A Heart problem - parable of the four hearts
2. A Counterfit problem - parable of the tares
3. A Demonic problem - parable of the tares
4. An Unnatural size - due to three bad hearts, due to tares, due to demonic deception (protrayed in introduction of leaven into dough = unnatural size; portrayed by comparison of seed to mustard plant = size is deceptive).
The trouble with your interpretation is that it fails to interpret it according to the overall context in which the chapter is found (rejection) and fails to recognize and accept the precise language being used. Go back and read it again and take note of the precise language and these FACTS that I pointed out.
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