One or both views are irrational.

[37818]

"Rational" does not mean "correct". It means that it follows from certain pre-suppositions.

Is to believe a lie the rational thing to do?

 

[AustinC]

Is to believe a lie the rational thing to do?

If you do not wish to believe a falsehood, why then do you reject the truth of scripture that God adopted, chose, and elected his children from before the foundation of the world? You have no rational reason for holding the view you hold which goes against nearly every Christian on the planet, yet here you are telling all other Christians that their belief is a lie. I cannot tell you enough how arrogant you are being.

 

[Silverhair]

If you do not wish to believe a falsehood, why then do you reject the truth of scripture that God adopted, chose, and elected his children from before the foundation of the world? You have no rational reason for holding the view you hold which goes against nearly every Christian on the planet, yet here you are telling all other Christians that their belief is a lie. I cannot tell you enough how arrogant you are being.

Are you saying that only calvinists are Christians. You have no rational reason for holding the view you hold which goes against nearly every Christian on the planet, yet here you are telling all other Christians that their belief is a lie. Take about arrogance.

 

[37818]

If you do not wish to believe a falsehood, why then do you reject the truth of scripture that God adopted, chose, and elected his children from before the foundation of the world? You have no rational reason for holding the view you hold which goes against nearly every Christian on the planet, yet here you are telling all other Christians that their belief is a lie. I cannot tell you enough how arrogant you are being.

I do not reject Holy Scripture. I reject interpertations that I understand to be contrary to to what the Holy Scripture teaches. Big difference.

 

[AustinC]

I do not reject Holy Scripture. I reject interpertations that I understand to be contrary to to what the Holy Scripture teaches. Big difference.

Fine, yet your interpretation is not held by the vast majority of Christians. For you to imagine your view is rational while Arminian and Calvinist views are not rational...well...your thought is entirely irrational. Unless you deem yourself to be the world's greatest Bible interpreter ever in the existence of scholars, then you have to admit that you are making a rash statement in the OP.

 

[Alan Gross]

It's simply a commentary on general human nature, how selfish and self-centered we are, how much we love our sin, how all humans are fallen, how we have no righteousness of our own to earn our salvation.

True. To the extent that the lost sinner's soul is SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

That no sinner naturally seeks after God

What does that say? As long as they are, "in the natural"/ flesh,
the lost sinner WILL NEVER SEEK AFTER GOD.

That no sinner naturally seeks after God is not to say that he cannot believe the gospel when it is offered to him

I think you took a wrong turn, at, "dead".

in the context of God’s enlightenment (John 1:9),

"That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
to the extent that they are, "CONDEMNED".

"in the context of God’s enlightenment (John 1:9),"
exclusively to CONDEMN them.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him,
and the world knew him not.

This is WHERE GOD GIVES souls UP:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God
is manifest in them;

because God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him
from the creation of the world are clearly seen,

being understood by the things that are made
, even his eternal power and Godhead;

so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God,

(to the extent that they knew, "God Exists",
but not with the capability of "Knowing" God, who is SPIRIT,
when their Spirit is dead to God.)

they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up"

conviction (John 16:8),

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin,
and of righteousness, and of judgment:" = conviction (John 16:8)

Amen. Whenever, wherever The Holy Spirit Comes,
in The EFFECTUAL CALLING.

and drawing (John 12:32)

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

John 12:35b,36;
"because he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

And IS NOT, "DRAWN":

36 While ye have light, believe in the light,
that ye may be the children of light.

and NOT those who "walk in darkness", who are NOT, "DRAWN".

it's just that most choose not to.

Those who are lost spend their life
committing the unpardonable sin and die in that condition.

 

[Alan Gross]

I do not reject Holy Scripture. I reject interpertations that I understand to be contrary to to what the Holy Scripture teaches. Big difference.

With the O.P., what
views are irrational,

that you see in "Calvinism"?

 

[37818]

Fine, yet your interpretation is not held by the vast majority of Christians.

Ok, there are some. Specify which ones you have in mind.

 

[37818]

With the O.P., what
views are irrational,

that you see in "Calvinism"?

Regeneration before the faith. Unconditional election. Limited atonement at the exclution of all the lost.

 

[Alan Gross]

Regeneration before the faith. Unco

"Then they spoke
the Word of the Lord to him",

for him to be brought to Full Conviction,
through The Word,
The Law Teaching him of his sin,
and Repentance,

John 1:12-13; But as many as received him,
to them gave he power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God.

John 15:3; Now ye are clean
through the word which I have spoken unto you.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh,
and whither it goeth:

so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel
came not unto you in word only,
but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,
and in much assurance;

as ye know what manner of men
we were among you for your sake.

Titus 3:5-6;
Not by works of righteousness
which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us
with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of first fruits
of his creatures.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

The foregoing scriptures prove
without a shadow of a doubt
that The Work of REGENERATION
is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
through The WORD
which Enables the sinner
to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel.

 

[37818]

"Then they spoke
the Word of the Lord to him",

for him to be brought to Full Conviction,
through The Word,
The Law Teaching him of his sin,
and Repentance,

John 1:12-13; But as many as received him,
to them gave he power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God.

John 15:3; Now ye are clean
through the word which I have spoken unto you.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh,
and whither it goeth:

so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel
came not unto you in word only,
but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,
and in much assurance;

as ye know what manner of men
we were among you for your sake.

Titus 3:5-6;
Not by works of righteousness
which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us
with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of first fruits
of his creatures.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

The foregoing scriptures prove
without a shadow of a doubt
that The Work of REGENERATION
is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
through The WORD
which Enables the sinner
to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel.

None of those passages teach regeneration before faith.

 

[Alan Gross]

None of those passages teach regeneration before faith.

Remarkable.

 

[37818]

Remarkable.

Why would any of those passages teach diffrent in meaning than, Ephesians 1:13, ". . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . ."?

 

[Alan Gross]

Why would any of those passages teach diffrent in meaning than, Ephesians 1:13, ". . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . ."?

after that ye heard the word of truth

 

[AustinC]

Ok, there are some. Specify which ones you have in mind.

You tell us. You made the OP with a wide, broad stroke of the brush and then left it. It's time for you to be specific or admit that you really have no clue and and simply were blustering.

 

[37818]

You tell us. You made the OP with a wide, broad stroke of the brush and then left it. It's time for you to be specific or admit that you really have no clue and and simply were blustering.

Your the one making this complaint, as if my minority views were all wrong.

Fine, yet your interpretation is not held by the vast majority of Christians.

I believe in conditional immortality of the human soul. Otherwise the immortality of the soul is a false teaching.

 

[AustinC]

Your the one making this complaint, as if my minority views were all wrong.

I believe in conditional immortality of the human soul. Otherwise the immortality of the soul is a false teaching.

So, you have no doctrine to share and cannot articulate your rational belief, but all Arminians and Calvinists from all times are irrational in their theology.

I hope you realize just how irrational you are.

Conditional immortality of the soul? Break that down for us with Biblical proofs. I'd like to see your deep rational thoughts on this matter.

What is obvious is that you are in a small minority and you cannot even articulate your rationale for your belief. Thus, this thread is just you being hyperbolic.

 

[37818]

So, you have no doctrine to share and cannot articulate your rational belief, but all Arminians and Calvinists from all times are irrational in their theology.

I have.

You are here being irrational about this.

I believe in conditional immortality of the human soul. Otherwise the immortality of the soul is a false teaching.

One needs to deal with one point at a time. So where do you stand on the mortality of the soul? I hold the Biblical view the soul is mortal. An its immortality is conditional. Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18:4, Matthew 10:28.

 

[37818]

In a thread now closed not a singe 5 point Calvinist who posted in that thread votred on all 5 points.

I hold to these points of Calvinism (by the number of)

I hold to these points of Calvinism (by the number of)

 

[AustinC]

I have.

You are here being irrational about this.



One needs to deal with one point at a time. So where do you stand on the mortality of the soul? I hold the Biblical view the soul is mortal. An its immortality is conditional. Romans 6:23, Ezekiel 18:4, Matthew 10:28.

You have done nothing to show us your rational, systematic, theology. [Snip]