Part 3, Earth Millions of Years Old?

[OldRegular]

I gave a scripture to support my statement:

// God's Sedimentary Plan for Doctrine building:
Isa 28:10 (KJV1611 Edition)
For precept must be vpon precept,
precept vpon precept,
line vpon line,
line vpon line,
here a litle, and there a litle. //

Ed if you would speak in 21st century English perhaps, just perhaps, you would make sense.

Post by OldRegular
Sedimentary rock could have been formed at a very rapid rate during the World Wide Flood.

As it says where in the Bible?

Anyway, would the World Wide Flood (if any) [OR bold] have formed sedimentary rock over 8 miles deep, 400 miles north and South, 200 Miles (E&W) as exists in Western Oklahoma, The panhandle of Texas, and Western Kansas?

Then you think God lied to Noah, and the rest of us, when HE said:

Genesis 9:9-16
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

BTW, lots of the World's Oil rests in sedimentary rock. We are burning the oil layed down in Oklahoma either 400 Million Years ago or 8,000 years ago at the Great Flood. Does your scripture say it is alright with God to use up all the Oil He created in FOUR GENERATIONS?

The oil, coal, natural gas, was the result of vegetation trapped by the sediment laid down by the flood.

Next lesson will be on tipping points in Global Warming
God Demands Stewardship by Mankind of what He made (particularly the surface of the Earth).
IMHO, the burning of half a Billion Years of Oil production in four generations is NOT what God had in mind. The World Order will be called to judgment over this matter.

And the Short-life Earth goes against the Doctrine of Our Stewardship of the Earth & it's stuff.

Did you receive this by revelation Ed? Did you get a word of knowledge as Pat Robertson would say? Anyhow I wait with bated breath!:sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

An area 50,000 miles square that was one foot deep would be needed to wash into an area of 8x400x200 Cubic Miles. Sorry, hasn't been any 50,000 mile square areas of rock on the surface earth in the last 20,000 years.

I did not know you were that old Ed. You are obviously not that knowledgeable. You were originally talking about sedimentary rock. You need to get more help from thinkingstuff whose powers are growing.

My apologies to Jedi Knight on this Forum.

 

[OldRegular]

Obvioulsy he speaking of the animals that inhabit the Island which are unique to Australia. For instance that continent has the largest and most unique number of Marsupials in the world. Which would make sense if they evolved differently than elsewhere in the world. We see how isolated Australia is from the rest of the world it may indicate a different pattern of evolution. Also the most poisonest animals and insects exist there.

Obvioulsy your powers are growing. I knew you could read my mind but now: Who Knows? The force must be strong in you. Kind of scary!:sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

May I suggest that you read:

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=type&ID=2

Not that it will make any difference.

Furthermore, I believe most poisonest is a double superlative. Those things must really be bad

 

[Alcott]

”Nevertheless, even if we presume that “kind” is synonymous with “species,” “there are not very many species of mammals, birds, amphibians and reptiles. The leading systematic biologist, Ernst Mayr, gives the number as 17,600.”

Not a chance for this unless you believe in the speciation part of evolution and that it works super quick.

What makes you think

Australia existed at the time of the flood? Were you there?

No—were you? But the only way it didn’t exist before the supposed time of the flood would be that is was geologically lower and then raised after that time; and if you think there was much less water in the oceans before the flood (that is was somewhere else, like in a deep encircling vapor), that makes it much more unlikley that Australia wasn't "there." But what is your explanation why of so many insects, mammals, arachnids, and others went to Australia and nowhere else? And why the mammalian life there has different methods of birthing and caring for offspring? Except for one genus of the Americas, of course… or was that just a game of possum?

If you are really interested you can go to: …….. not that it will make any difference.

That’s a big key, and the one which leads me to wonder why I involved myself in this argument again. No matter what we say or discuss, nothing makes any difference as to how it all happened.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Engineers work with facts and numbers and things that have logical progression. If you're having problems maybe its you and not Ed.

On OldRegular's side: he is/was an engineer.

OldRegular: // What does fictional literature have to do with the Bible? //

Why do you reject Brother Thinkingstuff's metaphor? Oh, I see, you don't accept any metaphor, not even one in the Bible. Since you feel free to reject my Engineering skill, I'll reject your English Language skill with regards to Figures of Speech. 'E.W.Bullinger' is a good name to know. Bullinger wrote a good book on Figures of Speech (English). Parts of the book is on-line.

http://www.tentmaker.org/bullinger.htm

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed said: // God Demands Stewardship by Mankind of what He made (particularly the surface of the Earth).
IMHO, the burning of half a Billion Years of Oil production in four generations is NOT what God had in mind. The World Order will be called to judgment over this matter.

And the Short-life Earth goes against the Doctrine of Our Stewardship of the Earth & it's stuff. //

Elder Brother Old Regular (retired Engineer) said:
// Did you receive this by revelation Ed? Did you get a word of knowledge as Pat Robertson would say? Anyhow I wait with bated breath! //

I received it in the Baptist way: I read my Bible, related it to what is going on around me, and after prayer and fasting began to share my faith/belief with others.

I was saved in April 1952 by Jesus. Near as I can tell, Salvation is NOT dependant upon theories of how God created His Creation. Salvation is BY WORKS -- Yep, the Completed Works of Messiah Yeshua.

 

[OldRegular]

Original Question by OldRegular
Australia existed at the time of the flood? Were you there?

Response by Alcott
No—were you? But the only way it didn’t exist before the supposed time of the flood would be that is was geologically lower and then raised after that time; and if you think there was much less water in the oceans before the flood (that is was somewhere else, like in a deep encircling vapor), that makes it much more unlikley that Australia wasn't "there." But what is your explanation why of so many insects, mammals, arachnids, and others went to Australia and nowhere else? And why the mammalian life there has different methods of birthing and caring for offspring? Except for one genus of the Americas, of course… or was that just a game of possum?

Have you ever read Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

It is presumptuos to assume that the earth had the same configuration before the flood as afterwards. Furthermore I don't have to explain the life on Australia. It causes me no problem. Apparently it does you.

 

[OldRegular]

On OldRegular's side: he is/was an engineer.

OldRegular: // What does fictional literature have to do with the Bible? //

Why do you reject Brother Thinkingstuff's metaphor? Oh, I see, you don't accept any metaphor, not even one in the Bible. Since you feel free to reject my Engineering skill, I'll reject your English Language skill with regards to Figures of Speech. 'E.W.Bullinger' is a good name to know. Bullinger wrote a good book on Figures of Speech (English). Parts of the book is on-line.

http://www.tentmaker.org/bullinger.htm

I thought it was dispensationalists who didn't accept metaphors or any figure of speech.

I haven't reject your engineering skill. Evolution like Christianity are both religions requiring faith. As for me I put my faith in Jesus Christ and His revealed word, the Bible.

 

[Marcia]

If you studied all modern fictional liturature you will find that studing a narrative internally does not reveal how its meant. My friends and I call certain fictional accounts "I books" because its written in a first person narrative. Now the entire story is fictional though there may be elements of truth. Now if you didn't know the context in which the book was written you may well assume it was being literal. Like a detective story. Maybe Mikey Spilain. "At 9:00 am, I was sitting in my office reading over the paper trying to make heads or tails out of what happened to Susie when a tap sounded at my door. I told Mag to get it while I busied myself trying to look like I was about something important." Fictional story but nothing internal to the story reveals whether its a fictional narrative or a documentary narrative. 6,000 years from now if this is the only piece of literature remaining people of that day may not know the context and may assume it documentary in nature like a journal.

But we are not dealing with fiction or regular books; we are dealing with God's word. I am not trying to prove here that Gen. 1 is God's word - that is the assumption (or so I assumed).

When God states something as fact and history, one takes it this way. There is nothing to indicate otherwise in Gen. 1.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Elder OldRegular: // As for me I put my faith in Jesus Christ and His revealed word, the Bible. //

Amen, Brother Elder Old Regular -- Preach it!

Brother Elder OldRegular: // I thought it was dispensationalists who didn't accept metaphors or any figure of speech. //

This Biblical Dispensationalist has the same "Prophetic 'day'" definition as the "Creation 'day' "definition.

Prophetic 'day'" definition

'Day' = the appropriate time
​

Creation 'day' definition

'Day' = the appropriate time
​

'appropriate time' is the time that is best according to God Almighty

 

[OldRegular]

Ed

Your definition of day is not Biblical. I suggest you get a Strong's.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But we are not dealing with fiction or regular books; we are dealing with God's word. I am not trying to prove here that Gen. 1 is God's word - that is the assumption (or so I assumed).

When God states something as fact and history, one takes it this way. There is nothing to indicate otherwise in Gen. 1.

I agree with you about Gen being Gods word. However, let me point you to Jesus' parables and stories. He does not indicate in his dialogue that what he is speaking about is a story or a parable. For instance Luke Chapter 10 it is agreed that he is telling a story or a parable to get his point across here:

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

There is nothing in this text indicating that Jesus is telling a story to get his point across we know what it is based on the context. I'm suggesting that the creation account in Genesis is being handled the same way. Jesus makes his point of Creation so that we know the important things (like not making creation into gods). But not necissarily to be taken literally. Since it was writen 5+ thousand years ago you're taking a metaphore and applying literalness to it which is not necissarily the case like how one could view my spelain example 6,000 years from now and confuse it with a journal.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed

Your definition of day is not Biblical. I suggest you get a Strong's.

OK, Stong's supports me.

Gen 1:3-5 (KJV1769-ish type edition with Strong's Numbers from e-sword.com ):
And God430 said,559 Let there be1961 light:216 and there was1961 light.216
Gen 1:4 And God430 saw7200 (853) the light,216 that3588 it was good:2896 and God430 divided914, 996 the light216 from996 the darkness.2822
Gen 1:5 And God430 called7121 the light216 Day,3117 and the darkness2822 he called7121 Night.3915 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the first259 day.3117

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

IMHO God always makes sense (the very basis of Science, BTW). The 24 hour day in Genesis One really doesn't make sense EXCEPT as a metaphor.

I embolden the stuff I beleive:

God Fact:
God Created Light.

Opinions:
God did not create dark.
God created dark.
Dark is the absence of light.
Dark can exist without any Light.
Dark existed when God created Light
God did not create empty 'space'.
God did create empty 'space'.
Space is the place where stuff that God made resides.

 

[annsni]

OK, Stong's supports me.

Gen 1:3-5 (KJV1769-ish type edition with Strong's Numbers from e-sword.com ):
And God430 said,559 Let there be1961 light:216 and there was1961 light.216
Gen 1:4 And God430 saw7200 (853) the light,216 that3588 it was good:2896 and God430 divided914, 996 the light216 from996 the darkness.2822
Gen 1:5 And God430 called7121 the light216 Day,3117 and the darkness2822 he called7121 Night.3915 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the first259 day.3117

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

IMHO God always makes sense (the very basis of Science, BTW). The 24 hour day in Genesis One really doesn't make sense EXCEPT as a metaphor.

I embolden the stuff I beleive:

God Fact:
God Created Light.

Opinions:
God did not create dark.
God created dark.
Dark is the absence of light.
Dark can exist without any Light.
Dark existed when God created Light
God did not create empty 'space'.
God did create empty 'space'.
Space is the place where stuff that God made resides.

However, "yom" paired with an ordinal number always means a literal day. If God said "God created the heavens and the earth in a day", then I can understand the argument. "God said on a day 'Let there be light'" would support your argument. But "first day"; "second day"; "third day", etc. all mean a day as in a 24 hour day - it always does.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// However, "yom" paired with an ordinal number always means a literal day. //

And where in the Bible can I find that 'fact'?

Or, who has that opinion?

You know, once I studied 'rhema' and 'logos' - both translated 'the Word'. I had a theory:
'LOGOS' = The Living Word of God: Messiah Iesus,
and 'RHEMA = The Written Word of God: The Holy Scripture

One problem, Here is the Bible Fact (as I studied it in the KJV1769-ish type family of editions):

( 'LOGOS' = The Living Word of God: Messiah Iesus
OR
'LOGOS' = The Written Word of God: The Holy Scripture. )
AND
( 'RHEMA' = The Living Word of God: Messiah Iesus
OR
'RHEMA' = The Written Word of God: The Holy Scripture. )
AND
( sometimes 'Logos' and 'Rhema' mean something else. )

Why did God choose to make the Bible hard to figure out?

God wants us workers (workmen) to be diligent to present ... the word* of truth by Study.

* note: 'Word' here = logos, the Holy Scripture, the written word of God

2 Timothy 2:13 (HCSB = CSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ) :
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed,correctly teaching the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Studie to shewe thy selfe approued vnto God, a workeman that needeth not to be ashamed, diuiding the worde of trueth aright.

[/FONT]// However, "yom" paired with an ordinal number always means a literal day. //

should that say this?

// However, "yom" paired with an cardinal number always means a literal day. //

CARDINAL NUMBER - ( dictionary.com )
1. Also called cardinal numeral. any of the numbers that express amount, as one, two, three, etc. (distinguished from ordinal number ).

ORDINAL NUMBER - ( dictionary.com )
Also called ordinal numeral. any of the numbers that express degree, quality, or position in a series, as first, second, and third (distinguished from cardinal number ).

LITERAL - ( dictionary.com )
1. in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical: the literal meaning of a word.

 

[Havensdad]

Did Noah take 2 of all 350,000 species of beetles on the ark with him? That would be about 127 pounds just of all the beetles. And there are more than 3000 species of spider, 2000 of scorpion, 4500 of worm... pounds, tons, of all these little critters if the only way of keeping them alive was to have 2 breeders kept alive for 150 days plus all the days to collect them. Did Noah have to go to Australia to get a male and female funnel web spider [and keep these aggressive arachnids from biting him, as their bite is fatal], or did the breeding survivors swim back there, leaving no descendants anywhere else?

Noah was not commanded to take a single insect on the Ark with him. Only animals who had the breath of life in their nostrils, had to be taken. Beetles, and other insects breath through spiracles: tubes in their body connected directly to their respiratory system.

Second, the funnel web spider is a result of divergent adaptation and allopatric speciation AFTER the flood. The water (which the Bible says, came primarily from under the earth) which separated the spiders into isolated ecological communities, caused the differing gene expression among spiders. There may have been some variation among them before: this is uncertain. But it certainly accounts for why the funnel spider is only found in Australia. Considering the fact that ALL biologists agree that ALL modern forms of Dog came from a single species less than 15,000 years ago, speciation of a spider (who has a much higher rate of reproduction, and a much shorter generation time: therefore can change much faster) is easily accomplished in a Biblical timeline (i.e.: less than 20,000 years or so).

I think many modern young earth creationists put too strict of a timeline on the Bible. Certainly there is neither scientific, nor Biblical evidence to believe the earth is billions of years old: I agree with them on this. But the genealogy, lists in scripture, do not provide a definite timeline, but rather a rough estimate, between 6,000 to 20,000 years ago, for the creation of the world.

 

[annsni]

// However, "yom" paired with an ordinal number always means a literal day. //

And where in the Bible can I find that 'fact'?

Or, who has that opinion?

Many do. The evidence is strong that an ordinal number and "yom" is a literal 24 hour day.

[/SIZE][/FONT]// However, "yom" paired with an ordinal number always means a literal day. //

should that say this?

// However, "yom" paired with an cardinal number always means a literal day. //

CARDINAL NUMBER - ( dictionary.com )
1. Also called cardinal numeral. any of the numbers that express amount, as one, two, three, etc. (distinguished from ordinal number ).

ORDINAL NUMBER - ( dictionary.com )
Also called ordinal numeral. any of the numbers that express degree, quality, or position in a series, as first, second, and third (distinguished from cardinal number ).

"And there was evening and there was morning, the first day"
"And there was evening and there was morning, the second day."
"And there was evening and there was morning, the third day."
"And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day."
"And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day."
"And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."
"And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation."

Nope, I mean ordinal.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Poncho: // What's the sense in being a Christain soldier if all you want to do is surrender to the enemy the first chance you get to hasten the Lord's return. By surrendering to evil you aren't going to be able to change the appointed day either. Oh you may hasten the suffering and all but that's about it. //

1 Corinthians 13:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And though I feede the poore with all my goods, and though I giue my body, that I be burned, and haue not loue, it profiteth me nothing.

Evidently it is NOT wrong to give one's body to be burned (be sure to have your love stuff correct though).

Is it wrong to give up your children to have their body burned (or a favorite in Dufa,r for a sex slave)?


2Pe 3:11-12 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Seeing therefore that all these thinges must be dissolued, what maner persons ought ye to be in holy conuersation and godlinesse,
12 Looking for, and hasting vnto the comming of that day of God, by the which the heauens being on fire, shall be dissolued, and the elements shall melt with heate?

This older version of the bible seems to say the way to hasten 'that day of God' is to be holy in life and holy in God-likeness, and by looking forward unto 'that day of God'. But probably that understanding of what the passage means is NOT what the words bore in 1587 (some say 1599?).

This more recent version of the Bible seems to say that 'looking for' and 'hasting unto' are just a repetition of the same concept.

2 Peter 3:11-12 (HCSB = CSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness
3:12 as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the heat.

 

[OldRegular]

IMHO God always makes sense (the very basis of Science, BTW). The 24 hour day in Genesis One really doesn't make sense EXCEPT as a metaphor.

I believe you are wrong on all counts.

1. Does it make sense that God would
a. leave the glory of heaven,
b. take on the form of man, and
c. being perfectly righteous,
d. take upon Himself the sins of man, and
e. die for sinful man.

2. The basis of science is that it makes sense??:laugh::laugh:
a. At one time science said the earth was flat.
b. At one time science said there were four elements:
earth, air, fire, and water.
c. At one time doctors used leeches as a treatment for various
and sundry illnesses.
d. enough said!

Perhaps a more correct basis of science is: Observations that can be repeated.

Why doesn't the 24 hour day of Genesis make sense? Do you doubt the power of GOD? Sounds as if you do.:tear::tear:

 

[Ed Edwards]

2. The basis of science is that it makes sense??

Nope, the basis of science is that GOD MAKES SENSE. Contrast with random events, what if you did the same thing over and over and different things happened every time - there would be no laws of anything. Yet the Universe God created shows that God makes sense.

You totally misunderstood: the LOGIC of science is that God exists and you can study some of the attribulates of God by studying (according to some priciples of science) His creation. So if you find someone who says they are a 'scientist' and that 'God is Dead' - they are being very illogical.

a. At one time science said the earth was flat.

That was to jive with the mistaken idea that the 'day' in Genesis is limited to '24-hour days'. As you well note, that was wrong to do.

b. At one time science said there were four elements:
earth, air, fire, and water.

1. That was to jive with the mistaken idea that the 'day' in Genesis is limited to '24-hour days'. As you well imply, that was wrong to do.

2. Science still says there are 'four states of matter': solid, gas, energy, and liquid. Notice the same four in kind, but a new description of what the four things are.

c. At one time doctors used leeches as a treatment for various and sundry illnesses.

Actually, they still do. Leeches have a natural (i.e. God-made-it) chemical that reduces the clotting of human blood (and animals with similar blood). From those chemicals, other chemicals now exist to help people recover from heart attacks. Ed notes that many heart attacks come from lack of self-control at the table*

* note Here the 'table' is a figure of Speech (not a metaphor but a _____ (title)for all things involved in eating & drinking; i.e. where 'table' stands in for all the things necessary for food from initial planting to the time one stuffs it into their face)

d. enough said!

You didn't say a thing that was of merit.
Try again. They say 'practice makes perfect'

 

[Jarthur001]

Nope, the basis of science is that GOD MAKES SENSE. Contrast with random events, what if you did the same thing over and over and different things happened every time - there would be no laws of anything.

Yet the Universe God created shows that God makes sense.

Give me a science reason for Christ coming back from the dead.