Part II: Biblical Doctrine of Election

[AustinC]

So you deny that you have repeatedly presented faith as innate in humans.

You deny that the human faith must have quality and quality in which God then responds?

I haven’t posted falsehood, Van.

But rather than address the issues, you have been distracting attention by demeaning those you oppose.

I ask this of Van, but he will not answer.

So...those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith. Is this statement correct? Yes or no is sufficient.

 

[AustinC]

I see once again Agedman has posted that I believe in "innate faith." This falsehood he repeats with impunity. Off course no one requires he provide a quote.

The gift of faith is fiction, where God supposedly compels people to "willingly come to faith." Never mind Abraham's faith, referred to as "his faith" is what God credited as righteousness.

So...those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith. Is this statement correct? Yes or no is sufficient.

 

[AustinC]

Smokescreed #16

Does anyone actually believe Agedman even knows what "innate" means?

Yes. I believe Agedman does know what "innate" means. I also believe he has correctly described your actual claims.

 

[AustinC]

How many times have I answered this question. 3, 10, more than two dozen?

Saving faith is our faith which God credits as righteousness. Should I repeat that answer? Saving faith is our faith which God credits as righteousness. Did our faith merit being credited as righteousness, or in other words was it already righteous? Of course not, all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Are we saved by works or by grace. By grace!!!! Should I repeat that?

The biblical doctrine of Election is supported by Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24 which teach God credits our faith (or not) rather than the complete and total fiction that God uses a supernatural tractor beam to reconfigure the pathways of our brain so that we seek God and love Christ. I have been waiting for more than 5 years for someone to cite 1 Calvin, 1:1, God uses irresistible grace to compel God haters to willing believe in and love Christ. It is a complete fiction folks.

So...those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith. Is this statement correct? Yes or no is sufficient.

 

[AustinC]

Seems to me you cannot defend your position and is why you attack others. You have no other defense. You and Austin are unable to defend your position on election. Poor little one's have no scripture that helps you out.
MB

Van, your doppelganger has spoken...

 

[agedman]

Seems to me you cannot defend your position and is why you attack others. You have no other defense. You and Austin are unable to defend your position on election. Poor little one's have no scripture that helps you out.
MB

I have spent days in discussions with these matters, on numerous threads.

My position is well defended in other threads.

 

[percho]

that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. Gal 3:14

but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:22-26 Is, "in," correct there because the we were given and or received the Spirit that put us, "in Christ," makes us of the faith of Christ?

Is the faith spoken of here the exact same faith spoken of in all of Hebrews 11?

Can we substitute, "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," for faith and be correct according to the Word of God?

 

[percho]

Is it by the Spirit we received through the faith of Christ that we who are of unbelief become of belief?

and when He may come -- the Spirit of truth -- He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you; He will glorify me, because of mine He will take, and will tell to you. John 16:13.14 YLT

Is that how we become believing ones or ones believing?

One of Van's favorites: And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, 2 Thes 2:13

Did not God choose unto just that?

 

[MB]

Again, see the misdirection Van attempts.

The post I made was not directed at salvation, but at your view of human conjured saving faith that you consider innate yet apparently dormant until self activated in every human.

You do not consider faith as God’s to implant. You present human innate faith is in some manner awakened. And that upon God examination of the quantity and quality may or may not credit that human generated faith as righteousness.

Your rendering of 1 Peter is flawed (typical).

However, I don’t have time to spend discussing 1 Peter, this morning.

I do have one question.

What assurance do you bring to believers when you present that they must have enough faith for God to approve of them to be accredited for righteousness?

How does that person actually know?

John wrote of how we know we are redeemed, however you present what starts in the flesh as creditable enough - perhaps - depends on the sincerity or perhaps some other indicators?

I do not have faith by conjure this is your way it's called magical imagination. I have faith by hearing something clearly explained in scripture.You know this is true. but you insist we conjure it up. According to you and Austin the Bible is a big lie Fair is Fair, You conjure your faith, election, and Salvation up. You don't even know if you have any of those things. None of your magical non sense is supported in scripture as a whole. As far as I'm concerned everything I believe is supported by scripture. What you believe is not in scripture
Your hateful post aren't worth the read anymore. You've lost in debate so many times you want to get even. This why you and Austin hate anyone who disagrees with you. Your hatred clearly shows your position and it isn't of God
MB

 

[agedman]

I do not have faith by conjure this is your way it's called magical imagination. I have faith by hearing something clearly explained in scripture.You know this is true. but you insist we conjure it up. According to you and Austin the Bible is a big lie Fair is Fair, You conjure your faith, election, and Salvation up. You don't even know if you have any of those things. None of your magical non sense is supported in scripture as a whole. As far as I'm concerned everything I believe is supported by scripture. What you believe is not in scripture
Your hateful post aren't worth the read anymore. You've lost in debate so many times you want to get even. This why you and Austin hate anyone who disagrees with you. Your hatred clearly shows your position and it isn't of God
MB

You must be having a bad day.

I hope it gets better.

 

[MB]

I have spent days in discussions with these matters, on numerous threads.

My position is well defended in other threads.

Defined yes supported by scripture not so much.
MB

 

[MB]

You must be having a bad day.

I hope it gets better.

Actually my day is great as it always is with Christ in my heart.
MB

 

[Van]

You didn't answer. Let me ask again.

So...those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith. Is this statement correct? Yes or no is sufficient.

Off topic effort to avoid the biblical doctrine of election. Total spiritual inability as you surely know is utterly false doctrine. Thus the fallen, are able to understand and respond to the spiritual milk of the gospel.

 

[Van]

Yes. I believe Agedman does know what "innate" means. I also believe he has correctly described your actual claims.

Smokescreed #17

 

[Van]

Van, your doppelganger has spoken...

Smokescreed #18

 

[AustinC]

Off topic effort to avoid the biblical doctrine of election. Total spiritual inability as you surely know is utterly false doctrine. Thus the fallen, are able to understand and respond to the spiritual milk of the gospel.

You are avoiding. Let's try again.
So...those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith. Is this statement correct? Yes or no is sufficient.

This absolutely is critical if we are going to talk about biblical election by God. So, please stop avoiding and please answer the question.

So...those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith. Is this statement correct? Yes or no is sufficient.

 

[Van]

Let's try again.

Total spiritual inability as you surely know is utterly false doctrine. Thus the fallen, are able to understand and respond to the spiritual milk of the gospel.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic

The five points of Biblical Election (ELECT)

1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then subsequently chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones.

 

[Van]

The biblical doctrine of Election (ELECT) rejects an individual election of humans before creation, but accepts an individual conditional election of humans for salvation during their lifetime. The doctrine rejects the false claim that the lost are unable to understand the milk of the gospel. The doctrine accepts that God credits the faith of some of the fallen (as flawed as that faith might be) and then transfers those credited into Christ. Only after a person is put into Christ, are they made alive (regenerated) together with Christ. Finally, once a person is born anew, God protects the person's faith so they always and without fail endure to the end, i.e once saved always saved through faith protected by the power of Almighty God.

 

[AustinC]

Total spiritual inability as you surely know is utterly false doctrine. Thus the fallen, are able to understand and respond to the spiritual milk of the gospel.

I take this as you saying that those dead in their trespasses and sins already have faith and they activate their ability to believe. God then evaluates their level of belief and either elects to declare their faith righteous or God elects to declare their faith unrighteous.

Thus, to your understanding, Election is based upon the human beings faith and whether it is righteous or not.

Is this an accurate understanding of faith and election as you see it?