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Paul Proctor on Purpose-Driven

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bjonson

New Member
guitarpreacher,

You are very observant and thank you for reminding me to update my profile!

I resigned my membership at Liberty Heights on March 13 because of this issue (and the fact that sermons are plagiarized there).

I'm looking for a new church home.
 
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go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
bjonson,

My "bad attitude" is rooted in your ignorance. And yes, you are crying! Your "warning" is hollow and lacks any understanding of the reality of what goes on at Saddleback. Just because others didn't come to Jesus in exactly the same circumstances as you, doesn't make it invalid or shallow or whatever you want to call it. And not to burst your bubble or anything, but your interpretations of scripture are not infallible, so get over yourself.
 
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bjonson

New Member
go2church,

I would remind you of Ephesians 4:31:

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice."

Your language is offensive and unnecessary in a Christian forum.

If you can't handle the objective discussion of these issues then perhaps you should bow out.

Brian
 
AVL1984

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Personally, bjonson,I didn't find anything offensive about g2c's answer to you. I think he's just stating a fact...you have a difference of opinion, and maybe if YOU can't handle the fact that people are going to disagree with you...YOU should be the one to bow out. Your attemp by using Eph 4:31 to make yourself look more spiritual rang hollow with me, and probably with a lot of others here.
 
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bjonson

New Member
AVL1984,

I'm sorry that you can't see that calling a fellow Christian "ignorant" and claiming I think my Bible interpretation is "infallable" and then saying "get over it" isn't offensive.

I do find it offensive and I believe he needed a rebuke. We all need to use grace in our speech, even when we disagree. I would expect a rebuke if I "called names" or acted inappropriately.
 
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go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
bjonson,

Have you met and talked with Rick Warren? Have you been to Saddleback for a service? Have you heard tesitmonies of changed lives from those that have accepted Jesus under his ministry? Or are you just reading what others have to say about what Warren said?
 
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superdave

New Member
There is nothing wrong with my logic (I already took and passed that class). The gospel will offend because the preaching of the cross is offensive to most. Warren's book appeals to Jews, Mormons, Catholics, etc. and that shouldn't be the case.
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The Bible is a best seller, even among non-christians, IT must be too soft. Maybe the reason its appealing is that it is being used by God? Or its priced to sell? I don't know for sure, but your conclusion is not the only one that fits the facts.
 
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bjonson

New Member
Nice try Dave, but you know fully well that most people who own a Bible let it collect dust; they don't even open it.
 
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bjonson

New Member
Originally posted by go2church:
bjonson,

Have you met and talked with Rick Warren? Have you been to Saddleback for a service? Have you heard tesitmonies of changed lives from those that have accepted Jesus under his ministry? Or are you just reading what others have to say about what Warren said?
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I don't have to and you know it. He has put his writings (and sermons) in print for all to see. I don't have to meet someone to critque them.

Do you?
 
AVL1984

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Originally posted by bjonson:
Nice try Dave, but you know fully well that most people who own a Bible let it collect dust; they don't even open it.
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A blanket statement, and again, a matter of your own opinion....Do you have statistics to back up your claim? :rolleyes:
 
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El_Guero

New Member
Dr. Bob,

I liked your answer:

Agree that Warren preaches a more "positive" slant on the Gospel than I, as a calvinist, would like. He will answer to his Master for that, not to Bob.
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Tho' I could not have worded that well, I would have tried to states something like that.

God Bless!

Wayne
 
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go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
Critque away I suppose, if it makes you feel better. You are going to be right regardless of what is said. Warren's ministry stands on it's own merits and doesn't need me to defend him. It is unfortunate that you are so willing to be critical of someone you haven't met or really understand.
 
AVL1984

AVL1984

<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
I would agree with g2c on Cloud being a far right reactionist! He is often wrong in his conclusions, showing far less of the grace of God than the works based religion of the hyperfundamentalist sect of the IFB.
 
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bjonson

New Member
Originally posted by go2church:
Critque away I suppose, if it makes you feel better. You are going to be right regardless of what is said. Warren's ministry stands on it's own merits and doesn't need me to defend him. It is unfortunate that you are so willing to be critical of someone you haven't met or really understand.
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So you have never given objective criticism to anyone whom you haven't met? Let's be honest...
 
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Brian30755

New Member
Have you met and talked with Rick Warren? Have you been to Saddleback for a service? Have you heard tesitmonies of changed lives from those that have accepted Jesus under his ministry? Or are you just reading what others have to say about what Warren said?
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With all due respect, would you have to meet and talk with Senator Edward Kennedy, or go to Washington and watch him in action, or hear testimonies of those he has helped to know that his agenda is definitely anti-Christian and anti-family?

What's wrong with taking a good look at a book that so many Christians have embraced, just to see if it is Biblically correct?

Here are a few paragraphs from THIS ARTICLE:

As I began reading this book, the problems were so numerous and obvious that I backed up and began marking these errors. I found 42 such biblical inaccuracies, plus 18 out-of-context passages of Scripture, supposedly used to prove his point, and another 9 distorted translations. (I will return to some of these in a moment). In general, there is much that is disturbing within the pages of The Purpose-Driven Life. Even though he denies it, Warren is obviously a disciple of pop-psychology, which is littered throughout. The wise reader is well aware that simply because someone denies they are teaching something does not mean they are not teaching it. The proof is not in the denial but in the substance. In this case Warren on the one hand repeatedly rejects psycho-babble, but on the other hand he immerses his reader in it. One example is "Most conflict is rooted in unmet needs" (p.154). You will find that idea in Rogers and Freud but try to find it in Scripture. He quoted favorably from a wide variety of dubious authors, from Aldous Huxley and Albert Schweitzer to George Bernard Shaw and St. John of the Cross (Catholic mystic). He apparently believes practicing Roman Catholics are true believers, several times mentioning monks and nuns as Christian examples, and of course the obligatory reference to Mother Teresa (twice). This unqualified acceptance and promotion of Catholics brings into question Warren’s understanding of the gospel message itself. If he believes that faithful Roman Catholics, who believe in a works-righteousness, are born-again Christians, what does he believe the gospel is? Do we receive the gift of salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus certain works and sacraments? This is no minor issue, especially in a book that never spells out the plan of salvation.

Warren, however, is not totally off base, and I would not want to portray him as such. Without question he is as evangelical as many evangelicals. Nevertheless, when every third page (on average) of a book presents either an unbiblical, or at least a biblically unsupportable idea, there is not much sense bothering to read it. And that would be my suggestion—don't bother.

So, what difference does it make? What if Warren is misrepresenting Scripture over 40 times as well as peppering his book with extra-biblical psychological theories and other earthly pieces of wisdom, disguised as biblical principles? Overall he says many good things, and even in the sections where Scripture is abused he often says the right thing but uses wrong Scripture to support it. What’s the big deal? The big deal is this: once we sign off on this kind of Christian teaching and torturing of Scripture, the sky is the limit. It should not go without notice that every cult claims to believe in the Bible. The uniqueness of cults is that they twist the interpretation of Scripture to say what they want it to say, and failing that they write their own translations to support their heresies (e.g. Jehovah Witnesses’ New World Bible). Should we endorse these same methodologies when evangelicals promote them? Or should we refute those who openly sanction such approaches to Scripture? Remember we are not discussing different opinions on interpretations of certain passages. That too cannot be ignored. But of a more serious nature is this careless and wanton mishandling of Scripture that we have been discussing. To purposely ignore the proper translation of a passage and insert one that has no basis in the original languages in order to undergird a particular point of view is about the most dangerous thing that I can imagine. The only thing more concerning would be to discover large segments of the evangelical community being incapable of discerning this kind of problem – and/or not caring.
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