PB's monergism vs. Reformed's monergism.

[Earth Wind and Fire]

convicted1,

The Primitive Baptists arrived on the scene long after the 16th and 17th century English Particular Baptists (today's Reformed Baptists). Their Monergism was anything but inconsistent. Their great confession, the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, states:

10.3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

Besides elect infants there are those elect who are incapable of being outwardly called. This would include those with cognitive or physical impairments that make an outward call impossible.

Yes... Sola Gratia

 

[Van]

All of scripture shows that no one can meet his standard of acceptance...if they could, Jesus would not have had to die on a cross. If there were people who were capable of loving God with all of their heart, soul, mind, & strength, they would not need to be redeemed. That is not even a Calvinism issue.

This is yet another false statement, devoid of truth. Matthew 23:13 tells us of folks who were entering heaven but we blocked by false teachers and false doctrine. Then we have John 21, where Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him unconditionally. Peter answers that he loves him like a brother. Jesus accepts this "best effort" as meeting His standard and say "Feed My Sheep." You, 12 Strings, deny God accepts us based on His knowledge of our heart. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 should tell you that God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Your complete denial of plain as day scripture boggles the mind.

We are saying the same thing here...You say only God knows and determines what real faith is or isn't, what really loving God with all your heart is or isn't. I would not disagree. That's simply what I'm calling true faith...It's not putting merit in the faith any more than your putting merit on the person's love.

Once again you pretend not to get it. Our love has no merit on its own, it is God who accepts our best effort as a best effort, no matter how the lack of perfection. It does not depend upon the man that wills but upon God. We do our best to humble ourselves before the Lord and God does the rest.

 

[Van]

1st off, thanks for the reply...:thumbs: Now, if the soul is conceived within the womb at conception, then it would be created spiritually dead. TBS, God is the One who creates our soul, and places it in the conceived fetus @ conception. It is the fleshly body that is conceived in sin, and not the soul. If the soul is spiritually dead @ conception, and God created our soul, then He created a spiritually dead soul that was already separated from Him, w/o even committing one sin, therefore, making Him the Author of sin; which He isn't.

1) The soul, part of the human spirit, is not conceived, it is made, formed by God, within us. Spiritually dead means separated from God, thus God makes us at conception spiritually separated from God. This does not make God the author of sin, but the One who applies His consequences to the sin, such as by the sin of Adam the many were made sinners.

Nope. Our faith is a gift from God, and not ours before then. Now, after He gives us our faith, then it becomes ours. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and isn't created within us.

Totally false with no scriptural support. Romans 4:4-5 tells us it is God who credits our faith as righteousness, not that He gives us divinely conceived faith. The meaning of the phrase author and finisher of our faith is that Jesus is the One we put our faith and devotion in.

Faith alone, is dead, having no works, which is something we both agree upon....:thumbs:....but man's faith isn't credited unto him until God first gives him the ability to believe, via the gift of faith. Then, and only then, can he have the ability to believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them which diligently seek him...Heb. 11:6......

More fiction with no scriptural support. God creates us with limited spiritual ability, the ability to hear, understand and trust in the milk of the gospel. Again, you claim God must enable a person before they can believe, but scripture teaches people believe and then God credits that belief.

Again, we have verse after verse where God or by the practice of sin, people are hardened such that they cannot understand spiritual things. Your view has no answer as to how they could lose what Calvinism claims they never had.

 

[Van]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Once again another Calvinist has claimed Ephesians 2:8 says faith is not of ourselves. Total fiction repeated again and again. Salvation is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God. And we are saved by grace through faith. Our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2. To be saved through faith means God bases His choice of us for salvation on His crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[12strings]

This is yet another false statement, devoid of truth. Matthew 23:13 tells us of folks who were entering heaven but we blocked by false teachers and false doctrine. Then we have John 21, where Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him unconditionally. Peter answers that he loves him like a brother. Jesus accepts this "best effort" as meeting His standard and say "Feed My Sheep." You, 12 Strings, deny God accepts us based on His knowledge of our heart. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 should tell you that God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Your complete denial of plain as day scripture boggles the mind.

Once again you pretend not to get it. Our love has no merit on its own, it is God who accepts our best effort as a best effort, no matter how the lack of perfection. It does not depend upon the man that wills but upon God. We do our best to humble ourselves before the Lord and God does the rest.

This deserves it's own thread, since we're no longer talking about Primitive Baptists...Here it is:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1974176#post1974176

 

[12strings]

Our faith is a gift from God, and not ours before then. Now, after He gives us our faith, then it becomes ours.

More fiction with no scriptural support.

What do you do with Phil 1:29?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If I could ever be a Calvinist, which I cannot, I believe I would go all the way and be a Primitive Baptist, as I believe them to be the only thoroughly consistent Calvinists.

 

[Herald]

If I could ever be a Calvinist, which I cannot, I believe I would go all the way and be a Primitive Baptist, as I believe them to be the only thoroughly consistent Calvinists.

Based on what?

 

[Luke2427]

Yes... Sola Gratia

Right. And just for the record, I believe God CAN do this. God CAN save without means. God does not HAVE to use the Gospel to regenerate. God saves babies without them understanding the Gospel.

All I am saying in this thread is that God normally uses means to regenerate sinners. That means is the Gospel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Right. And just for the record, I believe God CAN do this. God CAN save without means. God does not HAVE to use the Gospel to regenerate. God saves babies without them understanding the Gospel.

All I am saying in this thread is that God normally uses means to regenerate sinners. That means is the Gospel.

And Luther ways in:

“A man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another – God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident and does not utterly despair of himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely on the will of God despairs of himself entirely, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.”

 

[SovereignMercy]

Right. And just for the record, I believe God CAN do this. God CAN save without means. God does not HAVE to use the Gospel to regenerate. God saves babies without them understanding the Gospel.

All I am saying in this thread is that God normally uses means to regenerate sinners. That means is the Gospel.

Scriptural evidence or is this your idea? How do you know what goes on in the mind of an infant?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Right. And just for the record, I believe God CAN do this. God CAN save without means. God does not HAVE to use the Gospel to regenerate. God saves babies without them understanding the Gospel.

All I am saying in this thread is that God normally uses means to regenerate sinners. That means is the Gospel.

I dont know how God have done it with me as I never studied the Gospel prior to being saved.

 

[Luke2427]

Scriptural evidence or is this your idea? How do you know what goes on in the mind of an infant?

Without highjacking the thread to discuss infant salvation, I'll just say that what I meant was, IF God saves infants (which I believe there is evidence he does) then he does it without their full understanding of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There is no evidence that they DO understand these things- that's for certain.

God can save people via the merits of Christ based upon any means he so chooses- or without means altogether for that matter.

My point is that God's normative method revealed in Scripture is through faith.

God's normative means of regeneration in Scripture is through the hearing of the Gospel.

 

[Van]

Our faith is a gift from God, and not ours before then. Now, after He gives us our faith, then it becomes ours.

What do you do with Phil 1:29?

Here again we have the same old and often refuted claim to be granted faith means to be given faith. But to be granted faith is to be given the revelation upon which we base our faith, the birth, life, death the resurrection of Christ. We are to conduct ourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, there is no support for the Calvinist "gift of faith" only the gift of Christ's revelation, the milk of the gospel which men of flesh can understand. Calvinism simply rewrites the meaning of words, i.e. choice means non-choice, regeneration does not mean re-birth in Christ, and so forth. Here, being granted to believe is rewritten to mean a person who is unable to believe is enabled to believe. Pure fiction once again.

Thus the "gift of faith" is poured into the text, when the grace of revelation via the milk of the gospel is in view.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Repeating lies and misinterpretations of a simple reading of the text ad nauseum doesn't make them true.

 

[Luke2427]

Here again we have the same old and often refuted claim to be granted faith means to be given faith. But to be granted faith is to be given the revelation upon which we base our faith, the birth, life, death the resurrection of Christ. We are to conduct ourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, there is no support for the Calvinist "gift of faith" only the gift of Christ's revelation, the milk of the gospel which men of flesh can understand. Calvinism simply rewrites the meaning of words, i.e. choice means non-choice, regeneration does not mean re-birth in Christ, and so forth. Here, being granted to believe is rewritten to mean a person who is unable to believe is enabled to believe. Pure fiction once again.

Thus the "gift of faith" is poured into the text, when the grace of revelation via the milk of the gospel is in view.

Faith is a gift from God for all kinds of biblical reasons, the least of which is not the fact that everything good comes from him and faith is certainly a good thing.

The only alternative is this weird idea that faith is something you autonomously generate ex nihilo within yourself.

That is madness. Faith is either something God gives, just like he gives breath and life and EVERYTHING or it is something you create yourself.

Which is it?

It's a very simple question- which is it?

But the issue goes deeper and harder against what you believe than just that.

You seem to believe that faith is a choice. You can CHOOSE to believe or you can CHOOSE not to believe. It's all up to you.

If you would stop for a minute and think about that, I think you would see the madness of such an idea.

Faith is not something you CHOOSE. You have NO CHOICE but to believe what you believe.

You believe what you believe because, completely passively, you have been PERSUADED.

Do you believe gravity exists? Do you believe in it? Yes. Did you CHOOSE whether or not to believe in it? No. IT PERSUADED YOU. You have NO CHOICE but to believe.

I believe in God because God has PERSUADED me that he is. God has persuaded me that his word is true and divine.

Once God has exposed my mind to the evidence by which he persuaded me that His Son Jesus Christ is Lord, I had no CHOICE but to believe it.

I no more chose to believe in Christ than I chose to believe in gravity.

My faith is from God. God persuades and the necessary result is faith.

A child may not believe that fire burns. But when he puts his hand in it, he will believe. He does not CHOOSE to believe that fire burns- fire has PERSUADED him that it burns and no matter how hard he may WISH that fire does not burn he cannot HELP but believe in it because he has been persuaded. He has no choice in the matter.

I can SAY I don't beleive in gravity but that is meaningless words because I have no CHOICE but to believe in that which has persuaded me it exists.

There are two groups of people in this world. Those who God has persuaded and those who he has not persuaded.

There are not two groups who consist of those who CHOOSE and those who do not. That is a mythical and nonsensical proposition.

 

[convicted1]

1) The soul, part of the human spirit, is not conceived, it is made, formed by God, within us. Spiritually dead means separated from God, thus God makes us at conception spiritually separated from God. This does not make God the author of sin, but the One who applies His consequences to the sin, such as by the sin of Adam the many were made sinners.

You are a trichotomist, whereas, I am a dichotomist, and I think this causes us each a little confusion in what eachother are trying to convey. TBS, if the soul made dead, i.e. spiritually seperated from God at conception, what sin did that soul commit to cause this? Sin is breaking God's commandment(s). No where does it say sin is passed do from/through Adam, only death. God cursed the ground, and we, as extensions of Adam, who came from the ground, got the curse of death placed upon us, but not his sins.

Totally false with no scriptural support. Romans 4:4-5 tells us it is God who credits our faith as righteousness, not that He gives us divinely conceived faith. The meaning of the phrase author and finisher of our faith is that Jesus is the One we put our faith and devotion in.

Well, I guess then man can justify himself? God has chosen to justify the heathen(nations) through faith. So if faith truly comes from man, then he justified himself.

More fiction with no scriptural support. God creates us with limited spiritual ability, the ability to hear, understand and trust in the milk of the gospel. Again, you claim God must enable a person before they can believe, but scripture teaches people believe and then God credits that belief.

No man can come to God except he be drawn. No one, nil, nada, nay nay, zilch, zero, none, "goose egg". Man has no desire to serve God w/o the the Lord drawing him. That's how it was with me. I didn't want ot serve Him, but I didn't want to die and go to hell, either. However, when He came to me, and showed me just how vile I was, I began pleading for my life. It was truly a matter of life and death, and I chose life, and He saved me. Now, the spiritually dead do have the ability to hear the gospel, and Isaiah 55:3 and John 5:25 bear that. But we can't, and won't, come to God of our own volition. God draws, however, not all will come. Those that hear and obey, will be saved.

Again, we have verse after verse where God or by the practice of sin, people are hardened such that they cannot understand spiritual things. Your view has no answer as to how they could lose what Calvinism claims they never had.

expound, please?

I agree that we can reject Him and His offer, and harden our hearts. IOW, our conscience is seared akin to a hot iron.

 

[Van]

Once more

You are a trichotomist, whereas, I am a dichotomist, and I think this causes us each a little confusion in what eachother are trying to convey. TBS, if the soul made dead, i.e. spiritually seperated from God at conception, what sin did that soul commit to cause this? Sin is breaking God's commandment(s). No where does it say sin is passed do from/through Adam, only death. God cursed the ground, and we, as extensions of Adam, who came from the ground, got the curse of death placed upon us, but not his sins.

A dichotomist, believes we are made up of spirit (including the soul) and body (flesh) thus two (di) parts. A trichotomist believes we are made up of three parts, spirit, a separate soul, and a separate body. I believe we are made up of two parts with the soul being a part of our spirit.

The soul committed no sin to be made spiritually dead, i.e. separated from God. It was conceived in iniquity, and therefore in a sinful unholy state, separated from our holy God.

That is right, we are not imputed with Adam's sin, but we are conceived in a separated spiritually dead state as a consequence of Adam's sin.

Well, I guess then man can justify himself? God has chosen to justify the heathen(nations) through faith. So if faith truly comes from man, then he justified himself.

Completely wrong. We can put our faith in Christ and not be justified. Only when God credits our worthless faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, are we placed in Christ and justified through the washing of regeneration.

No man can come to God except he be drawn. No one, nil, nada, nay nay, zilch, zero, none, "goose egg".

True, but not all men who are drawn are given to Christ.

Man has no desire to serve God w/o the the Lord drawing him. That's how it was with me. I didn't want ot serve Him, but I didn't want to die and go to hell, either. However, when He came to me, and showed me just how vile I was, I began pleading for my life. It was truly a matter of life and death, and I chose life, and He saved me. Now, the spiritually dead do have the ability to hear the gospel, and Isaiah 55:3 and John 5:25 bear that. But we can't, and won't, come to God of our own volition. God draws, however, not all will come. Those that hear and obey, will be saved.

You got that right!!

expound, please?

You agree that a person can understand and be drawn based on limited spiritual ability. Another indicator of the existence of our limited spiritual ability are those verses where God hardens the heart of people, or where people harden their own hearts by the practice of sin. If they had no spiritual ability to begin with, as Calvinism falsely claims, then they could not be hardened because there would be no spiritual ability to lose.

I agree that we can reject Him and His offer, and harden our hearts. IOW, our conscience is seared akin to a hot iron.

Agreed

 

[Van]

Lets look at this marlarky

Faith is a gift from God for all kinds of biblical reasons, the least of which is not the fact that everything good comes from him and faith is certainly a good thing.

This sort of argument ignores that if God created us in His image, with the ability to choose life or death, then our faith, if we choose life, is a result of that gift of capacity.

The only alternative is this weird idea that faith is something you autonomously generate ex nihilo within yourself.

This is a false dicotomy, other alternatives exist. God grants us the gift of His revelation, the milk of the gospel, so our faith is not ex nihilo (out of nothing) but based on the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.

That is madness. Faith is either something God gives, just like he gives breath and life and EVERYTHING or it is something you create yourself.

God gives us the capacity to put our faith in Christ at conception. God gives us His revelation through His word and His witnesses. Thus our faith is in response to being drawn by the lovingkindness of God.

You seem to believe that faith is a choice. You can CHOOSE to believe or you can CHOOSE not to believe. It's all up to you.

If you would stop for a minute and think about that, I think you would see the madness of such an idea.

Faith is not something you CHOOSE. You have NO CHOICE but to believe what you believe.

This often repeated piece of marlarky boggles the mind. All of us have believed one thing, and then upon further review, i.e. additional information, we change our minds and choose to believe something else. The Bible says God sets before us the choice of life or death, Calvinism claims God made a mistake because we are unable to choose. Marlarky!!

You believe what you believe because, completely passively, you have been PERSUADED.

Note the pattern of arguments based on the wisdom of men, rather than scripture which says faith comes from hearing the word of God, i.e. God's revelation to us over time.

I believe in God because God has PERSUADED me that he is. God has persuaded me that his word is true and divine.

Here we have a Calvinist trying to sound biblical. However Calvinism teaches no one can be persuaded because they have total spiritual inability. And then those altered by irresistible grace are compelled to come to faith, redefining persuade to mean compel.

Once God has exposed my mind to the evidence by which he persuaded me that His Son Jesus Christ is Lord, I had no CHOICE but to believe it.

This claim based on personal incredulity denies scripture which says God sets before us the CHOICE of life or death, not death only for the lost, and life only for those altered by the so-called irresistible grace. This Calvinist view directly denies scripture.

A child may not believe that fire burns. But when he puts his hand in it, he will believe. He does not CHOOSE to believe that fire burns- fire has PERSUADED him that it burns and no matter how hard he may WISH that fire does not burn he cannot HELP but believe in it because he has been persuaded. He has no choice in the matter.

Yet another argument against scripture based on the wisdom of men. Calvinism redefines choice to mean non-choice. It is an unbiblical invention of men.

There are two groups of people in this world. Those who God has persuaded and those who he has not persuaded.

There are indeed to very different groups among mankind, those who are lost and those who are saved. God sets the choice of life or death before the lost and begs them to choose life. God does not compel our choice.

 

[Luke2427]

This sort of argument ignores that if God created us in His image, with the ability to choose life or death, then our faith, if we choose life, is a result of that gift of capacity.

We are not talking about capacity. We are talking about faith. Where does IT come from? That is the question.

This is a false dicotomy, other alternatives exist. God grants us the gift of His revelation, the milk of the gospel, so our faith is not ex nihilo (out of nothing) but based on the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Which is another way of saying that faith comes from God via the means of "revelation, the milk of the Gospel..."

God gives us the capacity to put our faith in Christ at conception. God gives us His revelation through His word and His witnesses. Thus our faith is in response to being drawn by the lovingkindness of God.

We're not talking about capacity, we're talking about FAITH.

I have a gun. I also have the capacity to raise it and fire it. But you don't care about where my capacity to shoot the gun comes from. You care about where the GUN comes from.

If you ask me where the gun comes from and I just keep deflecting and talking about my capacity to fire it, you are going to think I am avoiding the real issue at hand- where the GUN came from.

That is what you are doing here. We are not talking about the CAPACITY for faith- we are talking about FAITH.

God grants the capacity for faith- fine. I have the capacity to fire the gun. Where does the gun come from? Where does the FAITH come from?

That is the issue.

Do you generate it, or does GOD generate it? That is the question.

This often repeated piece of marlarky boggles the mind. All of us have believed one thing, and then upon further review, i.e. additional information, we change our minds and choose to believe something else.

No, no. We do not CHOOSE to change our minds. We change our minds because WE HAVE BEEN PERSUADED that what we believed was wrong.

We believe things EVEN FALSELY because of something that happens TO US. We do not CHOOSE to beleive in the sun. We believe because evidence has flooded our lives with proof.

You cannot CHOOSE to stop believing in the sun.

Belief is not an act of volition.

I repeat: Belief is not an act of volition.

The Bible says God sets before us the choice of life or death, Calvinism claims God made a mistake because we are unable to choose. Marlarky!!

Calvinism does not say that God made a mistake. Calvinism says God is making a POINT.

My small son wants a piece of candy. I want him to appreciate the fact that he is a child and dependent. I also want to show him that I, his father, love him and will do things for him that he cannot do for himself.

I hand him the piece of candy in the wrapper and say, "Open it."

He struggles. He cannot. When he finally gives up, he looks at me forlorn and says, "I can't."

Then I take it from his humbled hands and open it for him and warmly place it into his hands that are now ready to receive more than just candy- they are ready to receive life altering truth.

Did I make a MISTAKE when I said, "Open it." No. I made a point.

So does God. God commands us to be perfect even as he is perfect. Can you?

Can you?

Can you be as perfect as God is?

Answer the question. Can you?

No. You can't.

Did God make a mistake when he said that? No. He made a point.

Note the pattern of arguments based on the wisdom of men, rather than scripture which says faith comes from hearing the word of God, i.e. God's revelation to us over time.

Right faith comes from... God.

Faith comes from God VIA the hearing of His Word.

Faith comes from God.

This verse proves my point.

Here we have a Calvinist trying to sound biblical. However Calvinism teaches no one can be persuaded

Wrong. You don't know what Calvinism is- obviously.

because they have total spiritual inability.

Which he overcomes by his Spirit THROUGH HIS WORD.

And then those altered by irresistible grace are compelled to come to faith, redefining persuade to mean compel.

To persuade is PRECISELY to COMPEL TO BELIEVE.

You are making my points for me.

This claim based on personal incredulity denies scripture which says God sets before us the CHOICE of life or death, not death only for the lost, and life only for those altered by the so-called irresistible grace. This Calvinist view directly denies scripture.

Addressed above.

Yet another argument against scripture based on the wisdom of men. Calvinism redefines choice to mean non-choice. It is an unbiblical invention of men.

How so?