He said that SOME dead shall hear his voice, wouldn't thsoe be the ones God granted 'ears to hear Him with?"
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
PB's monergism vs. Reformed's monergism.
- Thread starter convicted1
- Start date
He said that SOME dead shall hear his voice, wouldn't thsoe be the ones God granted 'ears to hear Him with?"
This verse does not say that, now you are adding to the word of God.
The verse says those dead that hear shall be made alive. It absolutely refutes your false view that the spiritually dead are unable to hear the word of God.
Again, you just keep teaching falsehood and see where you end up.
Did jesus say that ONLY His sheep wouuld hear his voice, while the rest follow false shepherds?
did he not tells his disciples that the mysteries of his kingdom were ONLY given to those whom was intended for, his own, while rest stayed deaf and dumb?
Where do the scriptures say only the sheep would hear Jesus? Show the scripture.
Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and I have showed you the scripture. And those dead that hear will be made alive.
The point is, Total Inability is completely false, Jesus himself clearly says the spiritually dead shall hear him. Your doctrine is false. Jesus did not say a person must be regenerated or made alive to be able to hear, he said those dead that hear him shall live. Hearing precedes life.
Jesus said to take heed how ye hear, to those that will hear, more shall be given.
Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
As you see, if a person will listen, then Jesus will give them more.
You teach false doctrine.
convicted1
Guest
So, they have to be given life to hear the LIFE GIVING message?
Isa. 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Hearing and believing is what brings life. Life doesn't bring hearing. If that's the case, someone has been given life prior to believing.....and w/o faith, which is what belief is, and therefore, someone has believed before they really believed.
Last edited by a moderator:
Those who are sinners cannot choose to come to chrsit on their own, as its ONLY when the father grants them the means by the HS that they can hear and respond by receicing jesus by faith!
Uness the HS quickens and enables sinners to respond, the message keeps falling on deaf ears, and dead hearts!
convicted1
Guest
Calvinism has a bunch of "defaults" in their system. If someone believes contrary to Calvinism, they automatically default to Pel or semi-pel.
Jesus said His sheep hear His voice, and a stranger's voice, they will not obey. He didn't say that only His sheep will heat Him. So, in Calvinism, they automatically default to say that only the sheep will hear His voice. It doesn't say it that way. It say His sheep will hear His voice, but He didn't say He would only speak to His sheep. That's quite a leap there.
convicted1
Guest
Is this how they teach in Reformed churches? They just tell you things and expect you to take their word for it? Show scripture that supports this. Show where the scriptures say a man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they have the ability to hear and believe the gospel.
I have already showed you scripture that Jesus himself said the spiritually dead shall hear his voice, and those dead that hear shall live. Hearing precedes being regenerated and being made alive.
If you are not going to show scripture, then I will not respond to you again.
John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John
Really, the entire Gospel of john is calvinistic in tone, probably second best to romans itself to study and learn from !
convicted1
Guest
A week ago this last sunday, God truly blessed me to preach this message at a local church that should be applicable here. Here's a synopsis of it. Mind you, I did not have note, but I took my sermon from Isaiah 55:1-7 with the emphasis on verses 6 and 7.
Before we can react, God had to act. According to how we record time, God acted a little over 2,000 years ago by sending His Son to die for us. So before we can react, we need something to react to. We have the gospel whereby we can be saved. Now, we then have to hear the gospel. Not with the natural ears, if that was so, those who were naturally dead, would have no chance whatsoever. It takes hearing the gospel with the "inner ears", the ears of the "inner man". After hearing, we have to be obedient to what we hear/heard. Then after obeying what we hear/heard, we have to receive that which we hear/heard. After receiving what we hear/heard, we need to be baptized. Now, baptism doesn't save us, but it is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and if we are able, need to be baptized. Now, with each step, I brought out scriptures to support what I was preaching. Read Acts 8:26-39 and see that that passage supports everything I was blessed to bring out.
So, to break it down to it's simplest terms, God acts, we react to the gospel we hear, obey, receive and them baptism.
Contrary to popular belief amongst some, the Gospel isn't complex, but simple. God deals with us in a way we can understand. In college, I took psychology. In that class, we discussed how that when two people talk, the one who is smarter, has to come down to the level of the one who isn't as smart, because the less intelligent person can't come up to his/her level, but the smarter one can come down to their level. It's like how we talk with babies. If we talked like adults to them, it would go over their head. That's why you do teach calculus in 1st grade. God deals with us on our level so that we can truly understand that which we hear. The plan of salvation isn't rocket science.
Before we can react, God had to act. According to how we record time, God acted a little over 2,000 years ago by sending His Son to die for us. So before we can react, we need something to react to. We have the gospel whereby we can be saved. Now, we then have to hear the gospel. Not with the natural ears, if that was so, those who were naturally dead, would have no chance whatsoever. It takes hearing the gospel with the "inner ears", the ears of the "inner man". After hearing, we have to be obedient to what we hear/heard. Then after obeying what we hear/heard, we have to receive that which we hear/heard. After receiving what we hear/heard, we need to be baptized. Now, baptism doesn't save us, but it is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and if we are able, need to be baptized. Now, with each step, I brought out scriptures to support what I was preaching. Read Acts 8:26-39 and see that that passage supports everything I was blessed to bring out.
So, to break it down to it's simplest terms, God acts, we react to the gospel we hear, obey, receive and them baptism.
Contrary to popular belief amongst some, the Gospel isn't complex, but simple. God deals with us in a way we can understand. In college, I took psychology. In that class, we discussed how that when two people talk, the one who is smarter, has to come down to the level of the one who isn't as smart, because the less intelligent person can't come up to his/her level, but the smarter one can come down to their level. It's like how we talk with babies. If we talked like adults to them, it would go over their head. That's why you do teach calculus in 1st grade. God deals with us on our level so that we can truly understand that which we hear. The plan of salvation isn't rocket science.
convicted1
Guest
Nope....another swing and "whiff".....Jesus was telling His Disciples that He chose them to bring about the NT church. He told them whatsoever they ask the Father in Jesus' name, He may give it to them. He didn't tell them to ask according to God's will, but, rather, just ask, that they may receive what they asked for.
We don't have the promise. When we ask, we have to ask according to God's will, and not whatsoever we ask, He will give.
I admit your trying to prove Calvinism to be true, but you're hurting it more than you're helping......
Wow, you posted scripture! It does not prove total inability at all, but at least you posted a verse.
You have to be be kidding that the book of John supports Calvinism. I can probably find more scripture in John that completely refutes Calvinism than any other book in the Bible. John 20:31 is a perfect example.
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 says that a person must believe to have life or be regenerated. This absolutely refutes Calvinism. There are many other verses that all say a person must first believe to have life in the book of John.
The book of John does not support Calvinism whatsoever.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Winman, didn't you know that Calvin wrote the book of John? Why do you think it was named the book of John? :laugh:
saturneptune
New Member
While I disagree with you on some aspects of doctrines of grace, I am adamently sure Calvin did not possess the character to deserve his name being attached to any doctrine. The name makes me cringe. Yes, he probably wrote the book of John at night and used the light from Micheal Servetus's execution.
Calvin
Bunyan
Edwards
Owen
Machen
Gill
MacArthur
Piper
Dagg
Knox
Everybody knows if your name is John, you have to be a calvinist! :laugh:
Then why do they name toilets, "The John"?:laugh:
Yet another repeat of a Calvinistic falsehood. Was any scripture cited? Nope. What does John 6:37 say: 37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never cast out.
How does God give someone to Christ? By spiritually placing them in Christ. Therefore all given in this manner arrive in Christ such that they will not be cast out. If this verse referred to someone choosing to trust in Christ, then the verse would read, I will allow them in. Not how it reads. So a misinterpretation.
And again what verse says God grants us the means (i.e. irresistible grace) to understand the milk of the gospel. No scripture was cited. What does Philippians 1:29 says: 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake....
How was this granted or allowed? God's revealing grace, the milk of the gospel. No irresistible grace, just the account of Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection.
Again and again, Calvinism revises the text to pour their man-made doctrine into scripture.
Last edited by a moderator:
SovereignMercy
Member
Van, we all know you can't read so I'm not writing this to you but for the benefit of others. The topic of this thread is PB monergism vs. Calvinistic monergism. If you want to start a thread maybe it could be Finney's system of works righteousness vs. John Wesley's system of works righteousness. Then you, Winman, Thomas Helwys and others could discuss your crud there.
Here is what I posted addressing monergism:
The point made with sarcasm is that the monergism of either group does not make any sense and conflicts with scripture.
The point of the OP was that the Reformed view was not as monergistic as the PB view because the PB accepted that a person has no responsibility to respond. Therefore both views are absurd.