PB's monergism vs. Reformed's monergism.

[Yeshua1]

Without highjacking the thread to discuss infant salvation, I'll just say that what I meant was, IF God saves infants (which I believe there is evidence he does) then he does it without their full understanding of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There is no evidence that they DO understand these things- that's for certain.

God can save people via the merits of Christ based upon any means he so chooses- or without means altogether for that matter.

My point is that God's normative method revealed in Scripture is through faith.

God's normative means of regeneration in Scripture is through the hearing of the Gospel.

To my undertanding, God has chosen to elect to salvation thru the cross Infants and other 'special cases", but that for those who he knows are held by him to be personally accountible, he will save them by making sure they get the message to them, as the HS enables them to be able to hear and respond to believe unto jesus and get saved!

God has ordianed that the Gospel message will be used by him to save sinners that He chose in Christ to hear and receive it!

 

[SovereignMercy]

To my undertanding, God has chosen to elect to salvation thru the cross Infants and other 'special cases", but that for those who he knows are held by him to be personally accountible, he will save them by making sure they get the message to them, as the HS enables them to be able to hear and respond to believe unto jesus and get saved!

God has ordianed that the Gospel message will be used by him to save sinners that He chose in Christ to hear and receive it!

Your understanding isn't based on scripture. The Bible says nothing about these two cases.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Too many people on this forum disregard this text... and this one about "our" understanding.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

 

[Luke2427]

Your understanding isn't based on scripture. The Bible says nothing about these two cases.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Too many people on this forum disregard this text... and this one about "our" understanding.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

So what is it that you have a an issue with?

That people are purporting that God saves babies or that God regenerates using means (i.e. the Gospel) or what?

I don't understand your beef.

 

[Van]

We are not talking about capacity. We are talking about faith. Where does IT come from? That is the question.

Note how the Calvinist dismisses scriptural truth as beside the point. I answered, referring to scripture, yet the answer is ignored, deflection. Then the already answered question is asked again. Stonewalling.

Which is another way of saying that faith comes from God via the means of "revelation, the milk of the Gospel..."

What a joke. Saying faith comes from God's revelation, the scriptural view, is not the same as saying faith comes from within us ex nihilo. All Calvinism has is shuck and jive.

That is what you are doing here. We are not talking about the CAPACITY for faith- we are talking about FAITH.

1) Calvinism claims we have no capacity to trust in Jesus. That is false and unscriptural. 2) Faith comes from the revelation of God, the milk of the gospel. God draws us with His lovingkindness, revealed in the gospel, and either we respond in love or we choose some other path.

Do you generate it, or does GOD generate it? That is the question.

Asked and answered numerous times. Thus just more stonewalling. We choose to trust in Christ, we are not compelled to trust in Christ by irresistible grace. As pointed out again and again, Matthew 23:13 teaches lost unregenerate men of flesh were entering heaven, therefore they were responding to God's revelation without supernatural compulsion. However, they we blocked by false teaching, showing they made a choice based on bogus information. Calvinism is unscriptural to the max.

No, no. We do not CHOOSE to change our minds. We change our minds because WE HAVE BEEN PERSUADED that what we believed was wrong.

Note the assertion denies scriptural over and over, with examples of folks deciding for Christ and against Christ.

We believe things EVEN FALSELY because of something that happens TO US. We do not CHOOSE to beleive in the sun. We believe because evidence has flooded our lives with proof.

Yet another repeat that God got it wrong when He set the Choice of life or death before us. Calvinism claims we cannot make a choice, but God does.

Calvinism does not say that God made a mistake. Calvinism says God is making a POINT.

Note the denial does not address the fact God says we make choices and Calvinism claims we cannot.

So does God. God commands us to be perfect even as he is perfect. Can you?

More chestnuts from the bin of falsehoods of Calvinism. I am perfect in Christ is the answer. But on my own, I cannot be perfect. This is the call of the gospel to be perfect.

Wrong. You don't know what Calvinism is- obviously.

Every single Calvinist says anyone who disagrees does not understand. They all drink the coolaid from the same poisoned cup of falsehoods. Here we have a logical fallicy, attacking the credibility of an opponent rather than addressing his or her views. Same ol, same ol.

To persuade is PRECISELY to COMPEL TO BELIEVE.

Yet another word redefined by Calvinism. Persuasion allows the person to believe or not, compulsion forces a person "irresistibly" to come to faith. Thus just another shuck and jive, denying the very doctrine of Irresistible grace by claiming it is simply God persuading us through His revelation, i.e. the milk of the gospel and other testimony over time.

 

[Yeshua1]

Note how the Calvinist dismisses scriptural truth as beside the point. I answered, referring to scripture, yet the answer is ignored, deflection. Then the already answered question is asked again. Stonewalling.


What a joke. Saying faith comes from God's revelation, the scriptural view, is not the same as saying faith comes from within us ex nihilo. All Calvinism has is shuck and jive.

1) Calvinism claims we have no capacity to trust in Jesus. That is false and unscriptural. 2) Faith comes from the revelation of God, the milk of the gospel. God draws us with His lovingkindness, revealed in the gospel, and either we respond in love or we choose some other path.


Asked and answered numerous times. Thus just more stonewalling. We choose to trust in Christ, we are not compelled to trust in Christ by irresistible grace. As pointed out again and again, Matthew 23:13 teaches lost unregenerate men of flesh were entering heaven, therefore they were responding to God's revelation without supernatural compulsion. However, they we blocked by false teaching, showing they made a choice based on bogus information. Calvinism is unscriptural to the max.

Note the assertion denies scriptural over and over, with examples of folks deciding for Christ and against Christ.

Yet another repeat that God got it wrong when He set the Choice of life or death before us. Calvinism claims we cannot make a choice, but God does.

Note the denial does not address the fact God says we make choices and Calvinism claims we cannot.

More chestnuts from the bin of falsehoods of Calvinism. I am perfect in Christ is the answer. But on my own, I cannot be perfect. This is the call of the gospel to be perfect.

Every single Calvinist says anyone who disagrees does not understand. They all drink the coolaid from the same poisoned cup of falsehoods. Here we have a logical fallicy, attacking the credibility of an opponent rather than addressing his or her views. Same ol, same ol.

Yet another word redefined by Calvinism. Persuasion allows the person to believe or not, compulsion forces a person "irresistibly" to come to faith. Thus just another shuck and jive, denying the very doctrine of Irresistible grace by claiming it is simply God persuading us through His revelation, i.e. the milk of the gospel and other testimony over time.

sinners cannot receive the Gospel unaided, by themselves will always reject it, but the lord has provioded the HS to make sure that those whom it was intended to save will get saved!

 

[Luke2427]

Note how the Calvinist dismisses scriptural truth as beside the point. I answered, referring to scripture, yet the answer is ignored, deflection. Then the already answered question is asked again. Stonewalling.

You ignored the questoin by talking about capacity to believe rather than talking about the actual subject which is FAITH.

The capacity for faith and faith itself is NOT the same thing.

The question is "Where does faith come from?"

What a joke. Saying faith comes from God's revelation, the scriptural view, is not the same as saying faith comes from within us ex nihilo. All Calvinism has is shuck and jive.

Faith DOES come from revelation. Where does revelation come from?

Wait for it...

God.

So faith comes from... here it is... don't miss it... here it comes... GOD.

God imparts faith, God gives faith through his WORD.

That is Calvinism.

Faith comes from God.

Calvinism.

Got it yet?

1) Calvinism claims we have no capacity to trust in Jesus. That is false and unscriptural.

Capacity, capacity, capacity, capacity...

Talk about the SUBJECT AT HAND- FAITH. Not CAPACITY for faith.

2) Faith comes from the revelation of God, the milk of the gospel. God draws us with His lovingkindness, revealed in the gospel, and either we respond in love or we choose some other path.

It's not about RESPONDING.

This is where you Arminians miss it.

Salvation is not by grace through RESPONDING.

Salvation is by grace through FAITH.

You have to change the terms because the terms lead to Calvinism.

You have to replace FAITH, which is NOT a choice, with RESPONDING because you believe this weird, unbiblical doctrine that God saves by grace through CHOICE.

You do not CHOOSE to believe things. You are persuaded to believe them.

Did you choose to believe in gravity? You have avoided that question like the plague, and I know why.

Asked and answered numerous times. Thus just more stonewalling. We choose to trust in Christ,

How does that work. Describe that for us. How do you choose to believe something?

Give us an illustration.

You can't.

You can choose whether or not to listen and observe the evidence. But once you've observed it you cannot choose whether or not to believe it. It is EITHER persuasive or it is not.

You have no choice in whether or not you believe it.

A man may deny the existence of the sun in the sky. You may try to get him outside the cave to look at it and he may choose NOT to go.

But if he ever sees the evidence he will have NO CHOICE but to believe it.

He may continue to DENY that he believes it, but the FACT is that he has BEEN persuaded. Choice is not an issue.

we are not compelled to trust in Christ by irresistible grace. As pointed out again and again, Matthew 23:13 teaches lost unregenerate men of flesh were entering heaven, therefore they were responding to God's revelation without supernatural compulsion.

not unregenerate.

However, they we blocked by false teaching, showing they made a choice based on bogus information. Calvinism is unscriptural to the max.

Showing they were not persuaded. Not showing choice. Not choice. That's not there. You make this crud up then you fool yourself into believing it.

Note the assertion denies scriptural over and over, with examples of folks deciding for Christ and against Christ.

Not DECIDING. Believing or not believing. Not deciding. Once again you make crud up.

Yet another repeat that God got it wrong when He set the Choice of life or death before us. Calvinism claims we cannot make a choice, but God does.

This is just willful blindness. You are like the man who will not look into the sky for fear that the evidence will persuade him.

The Bible teaches Calvinism. You just refuse to see it.

Note the denial does not address the fact God says we make choices and Calvinism claims we cannot.

We make MILLIONS of choices.

MILLIONS.

MILLIONS.

MILLIONS of choices. EVERY Calvinist on earth affirms this. You don't know beans from apple butter about Calvinism and this is proof.

How can you argue against something which you know so little about??

What I am saying is that we do not CHOOSE to believe in ANYTHING.

Not that we make NO choices period.

Belief is the result of having been persuaded. It is not the result of choice.

More chestnuts from the bin of falsehoods of Calvinism. I am perfect in Christ is the answer. But on my own, I cannot be perfect. This is the call of the gospel to be perfect.

Wrong.

But I'll employ another example rather than go round and round with you on that.

Does God command you to always keep his commandments?
Yes.
Does he know you can't?
Yes.

Did God make a mistake telling you to do something you can't do?
No.

Then why does God tell us to do things we cannot do?
To show us that we need a Savior.

Yet another word redefined by Calvinism. Persuasion allows the person to believe or not,

WHAT???

WHAT?!?!?

Persuasion allows???

Where do you get this crud from??

per·suade
/pərˈswād/
Verb

Cause (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument.
Cause (someone) to believe something, esp. after a sustained effort; convince.


Van, the number one person you have deceived is yourself. I have proven this in this post.

You make crud up to KEEP yourself from seeing the light.

You redefine terms while accusing me of redefining terms.

I am right about persuasion and you are wrong.

But you will blind yourself rather than see the evidence and... yes... BE PERSUADED.

Admit it.

You are wrong.

Go ahead. raise the white flag.

Say it. Say, "I was wrong about what it means to persuade. This means I might be wrong about all kinds of other things as well. Calvinism is probably what the Bible teaches but I have obstinately blinded myself from seeing it"

Go ahead.

You can do it.

Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me...

 

[Yeshua1]

strange the the God who planned out in exact details the whole plan iof salvation, would in the end have to rely and wait upon sinners to hopefully make sure the death of Jesus meant actually something, buthopefully accepting jesus and getting saved!

must have God on his throne to them praying that they would do the right thing?

 

[Van]

Please note Luke 2427 did not address any of my points but simply posted a long repetitive post devoid of content. This is all Calvinism has to offer - copious quantities of twaddle.

1) Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

2) Calvinism does not claim we come to faith by hearing God's word, they claim no one can understand the milk of the gospel, because of total spiritual inability. Therefore this defense of Calvinism denies Calvinism.

3) Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, not the bogus instilled faith by God via irresistible grace that Calvinism invented.

4) To repeat, Matthew 23:13 teaches of men who had chosen to seek God, i.e. they were entering heaven, when because of false doctrine, chose to not enter heaven, therefore the result of the false teacher's actions blocked them.

5) Matthew 13:1-26 teaches that our response to the gospel is critical, for God does not credit everyone's effort at faith as righteousness.

6) The men of Matthew 23:13 had not been regenerated because if they had been reborn, they would be saved forever. Here the Calvinist claims someone being compelled by irresistible grace can be blocked from entering heaven. So yet another denial of basic Calvinism.

7) Again scripture says God sets before us the choice of life or death. Calvinism claims we cannot make that choice of life. Therefore God only sets the non-choice out of death before some. So again we have a rewrite of scripture. Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture.

8) And then yet another chestnut from the bucket of Calvinism falsehoods, God tells us to keep His commandments and we cannot, therefore God tells us to do things we cannot do. Talk about 100% pure twaddle. We are to strive, to do our best to keep His commandments. Not 90% of them or some other fraction, but the whole set of instructions and commands. And we can do this in Christ because Christ makes up for our shortfall. This is basic Christianity which Calvinism denies.

9) Next we get persuasion defined as persuade as if the effort to convince, i.e. persuasion, always results in convincing the person. Twaddle time two.

So after wading through yet another repeat of the same arguments, Calvinism has nothing to offer but mindless repetition and attacks against the credibility of an opponent.

 

[Luke2427]

Please note Luke 2427 did not address any of my points but simply posted a long repetitive post devoid of content. This is all Calvinism has to offer - copious quantities of twaddle.

...twaddle, twaddle, twaddle, twaddle... Van, it's time to expand your vocab. We've all seen you wear this word out.

1) Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

2) Calvinism does not claim we come to faith by hearing God's word, they claim no one can understand the milk of the gospel, because of total spiritual inability. Therefore this defense of Calvinism denies Calvinism.

There is not a real Calvinist on earth who denies that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Again you prove you don't know what you are talking about and that discussing Calvinism has you in over your depth.

3) Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, not the bogus instilled faith by God via irresistible grace that Calvinism invented.

WHERE DOES OUR FAITH COME FROM, VAN??

Be a man! Answer the question.

4) To repeat, Matthew 23:13 teaches of men who had chosen to seek God, i.e. they were entering heaven, when because of false doctrine, chose to not enter heaven, therefore the result of the false teacher's actions blocked them.

Show me "chose". Show me "chose" Show me... "chose" Van. You can't. You constantly make up crud- constantly... constantly.

5) Matthew 13:1-26 teaches that our response to the gospel is critical, for God does not credit everyone's effort at faith as righteousness.

No, he does not credit EFFORT at faith. He credits FAITH. He credits FAITH.

Not CHOICE. Not RESPONSE. FAITH.

Now where does faith come from, Van?

Here the Calvinist claims someone being compelled by irresistible grace can be blocked from entering heaven.

Show a Calvinst who says that. We'll wait. Show me one on EARTH IN HISTORY.

Enter Jeopardy theme song.

7) Again scripture says God sets before us the choice of life or death. Calvinism claims we cannot make that choice of life. Therefore God only sets the non-choice out of death before some. So again we have a rewrite of scripture. Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture.

So you're just going to repeat the same crud and not address the fact that I have utterly OBLITERATED this weak argument of yours already??

Be a man, Van. DEBATE ME. Stop claiming crud and running from my arguments.

8) And then yet another chestnut from the bucket of Calvinism falsehoods, God tells us to keep His commandments and we cannot, therefore God tells us to do things we cannot do. Talk about 100% pure twaddle.

twaddle, twaddle, twaddle...

C'mon Van- TRY to grow.

We are to strive, to do our best to keep His commandments. Not 90% of them or some other fraction, but the whole set of instructions and commands. And we can do this in Christ because Christ makes up for our shortfall. This is basic Christianity which Calvinism denies.

Wait a minute!!!

You are saying every human being ever born can keep every commandment ever given by God perfectly all his life, no matter how long he lives?

God commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to keep all of his COMMANDS so long as they live.

And you are saying every single man who God expects that of CAN DO IT?!?!?!?!?

You're not even ORTHODOX!!!!

Orthodox ARMINIANS would laugh at this nonsense!!!

Why do we BOTHER with you?!?!?!?!?!?!

9) Next we get persuasion defined as persuade as if the effort to convince, i.e. persuasion, always results in convincing the person. Twaddle time two.

Persuasion is PERSUASION.

We are not talking about the EFFORT to persuade. We are talking about PERSUASION.

You can't seem to keep from deflecting.

Persuasion mean TO CAUSE TO BELIEVE!!!!!!

If one is PERSUADED then he believes.

 

[Winman]

Faith is a response Luke. If you told me you won the lottery today, I can respond by believing you, or choosing not to believe you. Faith is a response.

If you see a sign that says "Bridge Out" you respond, you immediately slam on the brakes, or you foolishly choose to drive off the bridge, which is also a response.

Paul showed how we believe in Romans 10:14. He asks directly how any man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how any man can believe unless he has been supernaturally regenerated? NO, Paul does not say that here, or anywhere in scripture. Paul simply asks how a person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him, and how they can hear unless a preacher tells them the word of God.

All a person needs to believe is to hear the gospel. That is it, they can now choose either to believe the word of God, or chose not to believe it. No supernatural regeneration is required. You have absolute ZERO scripture to support the Reformed view.

 

[Luke2427]

Faith is a response Luke. If you told me you won the lottery today, I can respond by believing you, or choosing not to believe you. Faith is a response.

It is an INVOLUNTARY response.

It has nothing to do with volition.

Answer this question: can you by sheer force of will STOP yourself from believing in gravity?

Answer that.

Can you?

If you see a sign that says "Bridge Out" you respond, you immediately slam on the brakes, or you foolishly choose to drive off the bridge, which is also a response.

Driving off the bridge is an ACTION- it is not faith.

It is indicative that you were not PERSUADED by the sign that the danger was real.

You don't choose to believe. You DO choose to act. But you believe based on the fact that forces outside of yourself have persuaded you that something is so.

Once again: When did you CHOOSE to believe in gravity?

Paul showed how we believe in Romans 10:14. He asks directly how any man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how any man can believe unless he has been supernaturally regenerated? NO, Paul does not say that here, or anywhere in scripture.

The WORD IS WHAT REGENERATES, winman.

THE WORD IS THE THING THAT REGENERATES.

Sheesh!

Paul simply asks how a person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him, and how they can hear unless a preacher tells them the word of God.

All a person needs to believe is to hear the gospel.

Right. The Gospel is the means whereby God regenerates and brings to faith his elect.

Right.

That is it, they can now choose either to believe the word of God,

No more than you can choose to believe you exist. You have no choice BUT to believe what you believe.

Faith is not something you choose. It is something you do because something has caused you to do it.

or chose not to believe it. No supernatural regeneration is required. You have absolute ZERO scripture to support the Reformed view.

We've provided hundreds of Scriptures, Winman. Everybody knows it.

You don't care about the Word of God. You care about your little belief system that you made up in your little head for which you went searching after prooftexts to support.

Christianity says that salvation is by grace through faith.

You believe that salvation is by grace through choice.

You just replace faith with "choice" and say they are the same thing when they are not even RELATED.

But by doing so you have created a religion to suit you that is very different from Biblical Christianity.

 

[Winman]

It is an INVOLUNTARY response.

It has nothing to do with volition.

Pure bunk. Take the Presidential elections, we listen to all the candidates, and if we are serious about our vote we investigate each candidate to see if he or she is honest, or blowing smoke. Then we determine who we believe.

Or take a trial, you listen to the prosecution and defense, and based upon the evidence decide if the defendant is guilty or not.

Answer this question: can you by sheer force of will STOP yourself from believing in gravity?

Answer that.

Well, it is difficult NOT to believe something that is so compelling. Gravity cannot be denied, it is observed continuously by everyone. Now, whether Moses divided the Red Sea is a different matter, I have no evidence, so I must choose whether to believe the word of God by faith or not.

These are really poor arguments, but all you Calvinists fall for them.

Can you?

Driving off the bridge is an ACTION- it is not faith.

No, driving off the bridge is unbelief, you did not believe the sign. If you slammed on the brakes, that is a response of faith, you believed the sign.

It is indicative that you were not PERSUADED by the sign that the danger was real.

Well duh, that was the purpose of the sign. But some people choose not to believe warning signs, people drown at the beach because they ignore signs warning of rip tides. I know that growing up on the beach in Florida.

You don't choose to believe. You DO choose to act. But you believe based on the fact that forces outside of yourself have persuaded you that something is so.

You choose to believe every day of your life. You hear two politicians telling you opposing views, you decide which one you believe is telling the truth.

Once again: When did you CHOOSE to believe in gravity?

And still a DUMB argument, gravity cannot be denied. But many things we must believe without direct evidence. Did you see Jesus rise from the dead? Neither did I, but I believe it. You are comparing apples to oranges, false argument.

The WORD IS WHAT REGENERATES, winman.

God regenerates those who believe. Read John 20:31.

THE WORD IS THE THING THAT REGENERATES.

Only if you believe, read Hebrews 4:2, the gospel did not profit those who did not believe.

Sheesh!

Right. The Gospel is the means whereby God regenerates and brings to faith his elect.

The gospel enables you to believe. You always had the ability to believe, but no one can believe something they have never heard, this is exactly what Paul teaches in Romans 10:14. The moment you heard of Jesus you could choose to believe or not.

Right.



No more than you can choose to believe you exist. You have no choice BUT to believe what you believe.

Faith is not something you choose. It is something you do because something has caused you to do it.




We've provided hundreds of Scriptures, Winman. Everybody knows it.

You don't care about the Word of God. You care about your little belief system that you made up in your little head for which you went searching after prooftexts to support.

Christianity says that salvation is by grace through faith.

You believe that salvation is by grace through choice.

You just replace faith with "choice" and say they are the same thing when they are not even RELATED.

But by doing so you have created a religion to suit you that is very different from Biblical Christianity.

How can I not believe I exist? I am right here 100% of the time. That is not the same as believing something that happened over four thousand years ago, that I must believe by trusting the scriptures without evidence.

Faith is a choice, you choose to believe all the time. You have chosen to believe that regeneration precedes faith when there is not one word in scripture to support it. You have believed what Reformed teachers have taught you.

If you chose to believe the scriptures you would believe faith precedes regeneration, there are dozens of scriptures that ALL say this.

But you choose to believe men.

 

[Van]

One of the odd realities of Calvinism is it is based on Biblical truth. But rather than sticking with what scripture says, Calvinism extrapolates the light of scripture and plunges into darkness.

Did the Fall both separate man from God and result in the corruption of man such that his or her ability to relate to God is hindered? Yes. This truth is taught extensively in scripture. But Calvinism took this truth and expanded it into the false doctrine of the Fall resulting in everyone being conceived with total spiritual inability, hence in a fallen, natural, man of flesh, unregenerate state we cannot seek God or trust in Christ. But the expansion is utterly unbiblical. Instead scripture teaches that everyone is conceived with limited spiritual ability. The fallen men of flesh are spiritually dead, separated from God having not yet been made alive together with Christ and having not yet been sealed with the Holy Spirit as a helper to grow to spiritual maturity. Thus fallen man cannot understand things of the Spirit of God – that are discerned with the aid of our indwelt Holy Spirit – but can understand spiritual milk. See 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Do some people suffer from total spiritual inability? Yes but only partially as a result of the fall. Subsequently, during their lives, their heart is hardened, either by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose., i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13.

Did God unconditionally elect whoever would be redeemed before the foundation of the world? Yes. This truth is taught in Ephesians 1:4. But Calvinism took this truth, being chosen in Him, and altered this truth by claiming the verse indicated this election before creation was of individual humans, rather than the corporate election of whoever the chosen Redeemer would redeem. However, the “in Him” provides the foundation for this election which points toward a corporate election rather than an individual election. Which is not to say God does not individually elect us, because He does, during our lifetime, after we have been “children of wrath” and lived without mercy. 2 Thessalonians tells us how this election during our lifetime is accomplished, i.e. we are chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit, for God puts us in Christ, and He makes these individual choices based on crediting our faith in the truth. See Romans 4:4-5 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

Did Christ die for the church? Yes. This truth is taught in several passages. But Calvinism took this truth and added “only” claiming Christ died only for the supposed individuals chosen before creation. However, scripture is clear, Christ died for the ungodly, Christ died for the whole world, i.e. becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind, 1 John 2:2. So the issue is not whether Christ died for the church, He did, but that in dying for all mankind, it included the church, i.e He died for both the church and all mankind.

Finally, is God’s saving grace irresistible? Yes. But what Calvinism does is claim this irresistible grace falls of those without faith because they were chosen before creation individually, and they were without faith because faith in impossible before regeneration.
However scripture teaches the opposite. As fallen men of flesh we can understand the milk of the gospel, therefore we can both seek God and trust in Christ. Note, this action was taken by 3 of the 4 soils of Matthew 13. However, the second and third soil fell away because God did not credit their faith as righteousness. If God had credited their faith, He would have put them in Christ, and protected their faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5. Bottom line, God’s revealing grace, hearing the gospel, can be resisted, i.e. not heeded, or it can be understood and accepted, i.e. learning from the Father, John 6:45. But once God credits our faith, as worthless as it might be, as righteousness, God puts us spiritually in Christ by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:1-2. Hence we are saved by irresistible grace through God’s acceptance of our faith, and not of works which we have done.

God Bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

One of the odd realities of Calvinism is it is based on Biblical truth. But rather than sticking with what scripture says, Calvinism extrapolates the light of scripture and plunges into darkness.

God Bless.

It is rather funny to overstate the reality in an attempt to demean and belittle a differing view and then add the words "God Bless" at the end. Seems rather contradictory.


Reminds me of southern folks who gossip about someone else and at the end say "Bless their little heart".

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith is a response Luke. If you told me you won the lottery today, I can respond by believing you, or choosing not to believe you. Faith is a response.

If you see a sign that says "Bridge Out" you respond, you immediately slam on the brakes, or you foolishly choose to drive off the bridge, which is also a response.

Paul showed how we believe in Romans 10:14. He asks directly how any man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how any man can believe unless he has been supernaturally regenerated? NO, Paul does not say that here, or anywhere in scripture. Paul simply asks how a person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him, and how they can hear unless a preacher tells them the word of God.

All a person needs to believe is to hear the gospel. That is it, they can now choose either to believe the word of God, or chose not to believe it. No supernatural regeneration is required. You have absolute ZERO scripture to support the Reformed view.

Why did jesus say that His message like in the parables were NOT given so that all would hear and have a chance to respond favorable, but ONLY would be received with insight those whom it was intended to instruct the "those wh have ears to hear?"

Seems that God has to help us to get the message, doesn't He?

 

[Yeshua1]

Pure bunk. Take the Presidential elections, we listen to all the candidates, and if we are serious about our vote we investigate each candidate to see if he or she is honest, or blowing smoke. Then we determine who we believe.

Or take a trial, you listen to the prosecution and defense, and based upon the evidence decide if the defendant is guilty or not.



Well, it is difficult NOT to believe something that is so compelling. Gravity cannot be denied, it is observed continuously by everyone. Now, whether Moses divided the Red Sea is a different matter, I have no evidence, so I must choose whether to believe the word of God by faith or not.

These are really poor arguments, but all you Calvinists fall for them.



No, driving off the bridge is unbelief, you did not believe the sign. If you slammed on the brakes, that is a response of faith, you believed the sign.




Well duh, that was the purpose of the sign. But some people choose not to believe warning signs, people drown at the beach because they ignore signs warning of rip tides. I know that growing up on the beach in Florida.



You choose to believe every day of your life. You hear two politicians telling you opposing views, you decide which one you believe is telling the truth.



And still a DUMB argument, gravity cannot be denied. But many things we must believe without direct evidence. Did you see Jesus rise from the dead? Neither did I, but I believe it. You are comparing apples to oranges, false argument.



God regenerates those who believe. Read John 20:31.



Only if you believe, read Hebrews 4:2, the gospel did not profit those who did not believe.



The gospel enables you to believe. You always had the ability to believe, but no one can believe something they have never heard, this is exactly what Paul teaches in Romans 10:14. The moment you heard of Jesus you could choose to believe or not.



How can I not believe I exist? I am right here 100% of the time. That is not the same as believing something that happened over four thousand years ago, that I must believe by trusting the scriptures without evidence.

Faith is a choice, you choose to believe all the time. You have chosen to believe that regeneration precedes faith when there is not one word in scripture to support it. You have believed what Reformed teachers have taught you.

If you chose to believe the scriptures you would believe faith precedes regeneration, there are dozens of scriptures that ALL say this.

But you choose to believe men.

last time i checked, you cn preach the right message ina morgue, and non will get saved!

Spiritually dead persons have to be quickened first by Act of god, than can and will repond to the message of Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is rather funny to overstate the reality in an attempt to demean and belittle a differing view and then add the words "God Bless" at the end. Seems rather contradictory.


Reminds me of southern folks who gossip about someone else and at the end say "Bless their little heart".

All i can say is thank God Van is non call, as his type of responses give his side a "bad name!"

 

[Van]

Two personal attacks devoid of content from the Calvinists. That is all they have folks. They repeat the same falsehoods over and over, rewrite scripture and then do not address the truth.

Post # 93 demonstrated from scripture that the TULI of the Tulip are unbiblical. Nothing said about that. Just deflection and personal attacks. Calvinist type of responses are a bane.

 

[Yeshua1]

Two personal attacks devoid of content from the Calvinists. That is all they have folks. They repeat the same falsehoods over and over, rewrite scripture and then do not address the truth.

The OP demonstrated from scripture that the TULI of the Tulip are unbiblical. Nothing said about that. Just deflection and personal attacks. Calvinist type of responses are a bane.

jesus said thast ONLY those whom the ftaher gave him , those whom will have the means granted them by god to hear His voice, will come to him as their shepherd...

was he adding to scriptures, mislead or what?

 

[Winman]

last time i checked, you cn preach the right message ina morgue, and non will get saved!

Spiritually dead persons have to be quickened first by Act of god, than can and will repond to the message of Jesus!

You think this is a good argument? LOL. Physically dead people cannot hear, and so cannot believe. A spiritually dead person CAN hear, and can choose to believe or not.

Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

You can repeat your Reformed falsehood a thousand times, doesn't make it true. Jesus said the spiritually dead shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

You just go on teaching the false doctrines of men and see where it gets you.