Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

[vooks]

Here is how,
According to Calvinism,
Those who are truly saved will hang on/persevere to the end, and those who fall off were not really saved in the first place.

This tells me that the most objective test of the authenticity of Christian Faith is death; if you die 'in faith', it was the real deal, else it was fake.

Now, nobody knows zilch about the future so we don't know those claiming to be saved will fall off next week. They may claim to be elect but nobody knows for sure.

In short, the much touted 'eternal security' is only proved/confirmed by death, or Christ's return.

So next time a Calvinist proudly boasts of being elect ( and I have never met any who wasn't ),ask them which tea leaves they read

 

[steaver]

Here is how,
According to Calvinism,
Those who are truly saved will hang on/persevere to the end, and those who fall off were not really saved in the first place.

This tells me that the most objective test of the authenticity of Christian Faith is death; if you die 'in faith', it was the real deal, else it was fake.

Now, nobody knows zilch about the future so we don't know those claiming to be saved will fall off next week. They may claim to be elect but nobody knows for sure.

So next time a Calvinist proudly boasts of being elect ( and I have never met any who wasn't ),ask them which tea leaves they read

Are you saying you are not sure you will still be a Christian in the future?

 

[vooks]

Are you saying you are not sure you will still be a Christian in the future?

If the definition of true faith is the one that endures to the end, then all faith that is yet to endure to the end can't possibly be called true or false because some will endure and some won't . That's Calvinism absurdities for you; in a desperate bid to explain away the implication of the innumerable verses charging us to endure, they minister insecurity/uncertainty.

The reason there are so many verses calling us to endure is because there is a risk of falling off, not enduring and perishing. Calvinism explains these as not being elect. This means elect can only be called thus upon death if they died in faith!

 

[steaver]

If the definition of true faith is the one that endures to the end, then all faith that is yet to endure to the end can't possibly be called true or false because some will endure and some won't . That's Calvinism absurdities for you

I don't believe that is a good definition of "true faith".

But how about you? Do you know for certain that you will always be a Christian? That would be OSAS.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is how,
According to Calvinism,
Those who are truly saved will hang on/persevere to the end, and those who fall off were not really saved in the first place.




According to the bible......those saved by God persevere unto the end. Calvinists believe that,do you?

Or do you think a person who is truly saved....is truly not saved at the same time?

It does not appear that you understand the very teaching you are speaking about.

Why do Calvinists believe this doctrine that is taught in scripture. ....because it was taught by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Revmitchell]

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


If the above verses are being applied to every Christian in a general sense then they are being misused and taken out of context. Jesus was speaking to the Jews and this is not an admonishment to all Christians in the church age. We need to read the details of that chapter along with before and after. We need to remember that Jesus earthly ministry was to the Lost sheep of Israel and not to the Gentiles. Even Paul preached that the gospel was for the Jew first and then to the Gentile. That of course is speaking of the differences in God's program for Israel and the time of the Gentiles.


Paul wrote about the need to work out our own salvation:

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Of course the context of this verse is not about our general salvation as in our regeneration but it is a reference to the continual work of sanctification. We are to be working to be more like Christ, to walk as He walked, to become more Holy. We are to master our sins and intentionally work to be overcomers of them as we work to mirror Christ more and more.

In none of those verses do we see the context of keeping our salvation else we will lose it.

I am not trying to make a case for or against the ability to lose one's salvation. I am simply saying that those verses do not speak to the issue either way.

 

[vooks]

I don't believe that is a good definition of "true faith".

But how about you? Do you know for certain that you will always be a Christian? That would be OSAS.

I am saved because I believe in Jesus. Should I depart from this faith, I won't saved

 

[vooks]

According to the bible......those saved by God persevere unto the end. Calvinists believe that,do you?

Or do you think a person who is truly saved....is truly not saved at the same time?

It does not appear that you understand the very teaching you are speaking about.

Why do Calvinists believe this doctrine that is taught in scripture. ....because it was taught by Jesus and the apostles.

I have no problem with persevering to the end, I have a problem with the theory that those who do not persevere were not saved at all in the first place.

This means the true test of salvation is death as anybody before death can fall off and be found to not have been properly saved

 

[Iconoclast]

I have no problem with persevering to the end, I have a problem with the theory that those who do not persevere were not saved at all in the first place.

This means the true test of salvation is death as anybody before death can fall off and be found to not have been properly saved

Is it a theory...or is it taught here;

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

here is the teaching described in the 1689 conf.

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

 

[Iconoclast]

I am saved because I believe in Jesus. Should I depart from this faith, I won't saved

How can someone who is saved....be not saved but lost?

What were they saved from...if they are then lost?

You were saved...because of something you did?

What is salvation?

You cannot discuss perseverance until we define salvation.

 

[annsni]

I am saved because I believe in Jesus. Should I depart from this faith, I won't saved

So your salvation is based on what you've done?

 

[steaver]

I am saved because I believe in Jesus. Should I depart from this faith, I won't saved

When you talk about "truly saved" you must first define what that means. One must understand "born-again". Being regenerated is God creating a new person inside out. No one having been born of God can undo this. If you believe you can be condemned to hell after becoming a child of God then you will have to declare God sends some of His children to hell. One cannot stop being a child of God once saved. It is a new birth.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

the scripture says" God which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ"

The scriptures teach that we are in the fathers hand once we believe in Christ, this means we are not holding on to Him, he's holding on to us.

Vooks if you think you can lose your salvation, then you are not trusting in Christ to save and keep you. If you think you have to do something to keep it then you are no different from those who think they have to work for their salvation.

Are you trusting in Jesus for salvation, or are you trusting in your ability to keep "trusting"

Scripture says if we are unfaithful God still abides faithful.

Repent of your subtle self dependence or you will perish.

 

[steaver]

the scripture says" God which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ"

The scriptures teach that we are in the fathers hand once we believe in Christ, this means we are not holding on to Him, he's holding on to us.

Vooks if you think you can lose your salvation, then you are not trusting in Christ to save and keep you. If you think you have to do something to keep it then you are no different from those who think they have to work for their salvation.

Are you trusting in Jesus for salvation, or are you trusting in your ability to keep "trusting"

Scripture says if we are unfaithful God still abides faithful.

Repent of your subtle self dependence or you will perish.

Very simply and well put.

 

[vooks]

So your salvation is based on what you've done?

Faith.....it is based on faith

 

[vooks]

the scripture says" God which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ"

The scriptures teach that we are in the fathers hand once we believe in Christ, this means we are not holding on to Him, he's holding on to us.

Vooks if you think you can lose your salvation, then you are not trusting in Christ to save and keep you. If you think you have to do something to keep it then you are no different from those who think they have to work for their salvation.

Are you trusting in Jesus for salvation, or are you trusting in your ability to keep "trusting"

Scripture says if we are unfaithful God still abides faithful.

Repent of your subtle self dependence or you will perish.

You are saved as long as you remain in faith

 

[vooks]

When you talk about "truly saved" you must first define what that means. One must understand "born-again". Being regenerated is God creating a new person inside out. No one having been born of God can undo this. If you believe you can be condemned to hell after becoming a child of God then you will have to declare God sends some of His children to hell. One cannot stop being a child of God once saved. It is a new birth.

I love human philosophies. Let's try scriptures for a change
Walk me through 1 Tim 4:1. What do you understand by DEPART FROM FAITH?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

You are saved as long as you remain in faith

You are in unbelief of Ph 1:6.

You are self dependent and self righteous, salvation is of the Lord, not your ability to "remain in faith".
Your signature is hypocrisy because you are doing the same thing. You are a legalist.


Vooks, I warn you again one last time, you dishonor Christ by rejecting his promise to never leave or forsake you, repent of trusting yourself and put your dependence on Christ. You have not yet truly believed on Christ as long as you think salvation requires any effort of sustenance on your part.

Repent or you will go to hell.

 

[vooks]

You are in unbelief of Ph 1:6.

You are self dependent and self righteous, salvation is of the Lord, not your ability to "remain in faith".
Your signature is hypocrisy because you are doing the same thing. You are a legalist.


Vooks, I warn you again one last time, you dishonor Christ by rejecting his promise to never leave or forsake you, repent of trusting yourself and put your dependence on Christ. You have not yet truly believed on Christ as long as you think salvation requires any effort of sustenance on your part.

Repent or you will go to hell.

Keep your feeble threats to yourself :laugh:
A simple question;

Is FAITH IN JESUS that saves works or Grace?

Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

 

[steaver]

I love human philosophies. Let's try scriptures for a change
Walk me through 1 Tim 4:1. What do you understand by DEPART FROM FAITH?

If you do not understand born-again, then you are yet in your sins. Christian faith is a know so faith in Christ. It is not a I hope it is true kinda faith. I have a personal knowledge that Jesus Christ is God. How could I ever stop believing in that which I have personal knowledge of being an absolute truth?