Politics vs The Kingdom

[Quantrill]

I’ve been reading 2 Timothy, where Paul tells us that anyone who hopes to follow Jesus cannot entangle himself in the affairs of the world (he says that no soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of every day life, so that he may please the One who enlisted him as a solider).

But when it comes to politics it seems that Christians run to hit the campaign trail. Neither political party holds a platform that proclaims Jesus as Savior and Lord. Neither political party has as its primary objective the gospel of Christ. Politics is simply not about Jesus. Politics is about power and influence. Politics is an integral part of the world system (an entanglement we are told to avoid).

Am I the only one that is starting to think that there are many people who claim to love and follow Jesus but place more emphasis on the Constitution than the Sermon on the Mount in their daily lives?

Did you vote?

Do you pay taxes?

Gee, how unspiritual you are. But, I always suspected it.

Have you given all you have to the poor and followed Jesus?

Yet you say 'Am I the only one'. Yes, yes, it is just you and God sitting up there shaking your head. Not.

Quantrill

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Did you vote?

Do you pay taxes?

Gee, how unspiritual you are. But, I always suspected it.

Have you given all you have to the poor and followed Jesus?

Yet you say 'Am I the only one'. Yes, yes, it is just you and God sitting up there shaking your head. Not.

Quantrill

Sir, that is a very rude response. Romans 13 condemns most talk of politics on this Baptist Board. Where is the honor and respect due all our leaders? Where is the open submission to our leaders as long as they don't command us to sin? Where is our faith that whatever the means, those God wants for His own reasons to be in power, are in power?

I disagree with abandoning politics and the art and science of rulership. However, JonC has some good points thatg politics, like IMO sports, can easily entangle us in the world causing us to lose sight of the need to spread the Gospel, serve others, build up the church, and carry our Cross.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

For someone like Timothy called to world missions, ‘twere better not to get involved in the local politics. For someone who is local and not so called, however, the matter is entirely different. But in no case should politics become our god. No interest or activity should.

 

[Reynolds]

With his lips. I pray for the President's salvation, since his life speaks of a worldly man like too many I know. Faith always changes us to be more like Christ. The Charismatic and women preachers he has as spiritual advisors scare me. They will do him harm.

They don't scare me. I disagree with them on a bit, but we all agree "Jesus is Lord!".

 

[JonC]

My "party" is the one headed up by Lord jesus, but still can be involved in politics and try to affect changes!

Mine too. The Church.

I do not judge other people what they do. That said, I will live out my convictions.

Right now it is to cut entanglement with the affairs of the world.

 

[JonC]

Did you vote?

Do you pay taxes?

Gee, how unspiritual you are. But, I always suspected it.

Have you given all you have to the poor and followed Jesus?

Yet you say 'Am I the only one'. Yes, yes, it is just you and God sitting up there shaking your head. Not.

Quantrill

I did vote. I voted early. In retrospect I most likely will not in the future. I stopped associating with a political party years ago.

Yes, I do pay taxes. I am just not suited for jail.

 

[JonC]

Yet you say 'Am I the only one'. Yes, yes, it is just you and God sitting up there shaking your head. Not.

Quantrill

I see.....you are one of those "men without conviction".....you come and go, you come and go.

 

[JonC]

Didn't you just contradict yourself with your first and fourth sentences of this post?

How so?

I can oppose social injustice, killing children, and racism without becoming entangled in the affairs of the world.

Granted, probably not by joining a political party. But I will tell you now that men are created in God's image and we are to love one another.

 

[Benjamin]

Should Christians ever go to war? A conscientious objector may say not me, it's against my beliefs. I say the affairs of our lives in this country have approached the level that we must do battle against the evil that is trying to rule over our freedom and go to war if we must to keep it. If God has placed Trump as our leader, which I believe He has, then we should support him. I am also thankful that God has placed ACB through Trump in into the court that rules our lands and do not believe God would have Christians stick their heads in the sand and thereby deny ourselves through the Supreme Court's ruling our best chance for good and freedom in the land He has blessed us with. God has often worked through men who are willing to to go to war to protect their land.

 

[Quantrill]

Sir, that is a very rude response. Romans 13 condemns most talk of politics on this Baptist Board. Where is the honor and respect due all our leaders? Where is the open submission to our leaders as long as they don't command us to sin? Where is our faith that whatever the means, those God wants for His own reasons to be in power, are in power?

I disagree with abandoning politics and the art and science of rulership. However, JonC has some good points thatg politics, like IMO sports, can easily entangle us in the world causing us to lose sight of the need to spread the Gospel, serve others, build up the church, and carry our Cross.

Any thing can become an idol, can come between you and God. Politics, sports, and religion can come between you and God.

God will certainly establish the rulers that He wants for His purpose. Did He place Hitler and Stalin in power? Yes He did for His purposes. If one is a Christian in Germany at that time, should he 'obey the powers that be'? Funny how that excuse is mocked by most when a German guard says 'I was just obeying orders'.

I'm sure you have seen films on the holocaust and those long lines of Jews, submitting to the powers that be. Did you ever ask yourself, 'why don't they do something'? Or, do you believe they should do what they did? Nothing.

Were the Christians in Germany at fault for allowing the Nazi government to come to power? Of course not. How could they be at fault when God is the one who decides who the ruler is? Once it came to power, should Christians resist it? Of course not, God has established it. Should an American Christian be willing to take up arms and go to war with Germany when God has established the ruler there? Of course not, according to your use of (Rom. 13).

Whose side would you have been on when the pilgrims established a Christian colony and civilization in America which resulted in long wars with the Indians? Why did God use war to establish this Christian nation? Why didn't God just love those Indians into submission?

Whose side would you have supported in the American Revolution? That was blatant disobedience to the powers that be? To be true to (Rom. 13) you must support England, correct?

JonC's point is a holier than thou point. It's purpose it to silence the Christian. It is a point that the enemies of the Christian faith love to use against the Christians. They say, "Yall just stay out of politics and let us have our way" Oh yes, they want the Christian to sit back and do nothing but love everyone as they set about to destroy the nation God established.

If God used Christianity, and Christians to go to war to establish this country, who thinks it will be kept a Christian country without Christians fighting for it? See? God establishes the Political Climate that will breed Christianity and the Gospel. And Christians are willing to give it away because, as JonC says, we just need to love everyone.

Well, when it goes away, and it's going, our Gospel will be hindered. Our missionary work will be hindered. Our freedom to worship and witness will be hindered.

Please consider these things.

Quantrill

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Right now it is to cut entanglement with the affairs of the world.

This is an accurate statement.
Folks, the stole it "fair and square." This is already over.

Remember that bizarre statement by the Speaker of the House?

My guess is that they are telling us Biden will be removed, and Harris will be President.

It's time to start preparing for this.

Regards,
BiR

 

[JonC]

Any thing can become an idol, can come between you and God. Politics, sports, and religion can come between you and God.

God will certainly establish the rulers that He wants for His purpose. Did He place Hitler and Stalin in power? Yes He did for His purposes. If one is a Christian in Germany at that time, should he 'obey the powers that be'? Funny how that excuse is mocked by most when a German guard says 'I was just obeying orders'.

I'm sure you have seen films on the holocaust and those long lines of Jews, submitting to the powers that be. Did you ever ask yourself, 'why don't they do something'? Or, do you believe they should do what they did? Nothing.

Were the Christians in Germany at fault for allowing the Nazi government to come to power? Of course not. How could they be at fault when God is the one who decides who the ruler is? Once it came to power, should Christians resist it? Of course not, God has established it. Should an American Christian be willing to take up arms and go to war with Germany when God has established the ruler there? Of course not, according to your use of (Rom. 13).

Whose side would you have been on when the pilgrims established a Christian colony and civilization in America which resulted in long wars with the Indians? Why did God use war to establish this Christian nation? Why didn't God just love those Indians into submission?

Whose side would you have supported in the American Revolution? That was blatant disobedience to the powers that be? To be true to (Rom. 13) you must support England, correct?

JonC's point is a holier than thou point. It's purpose it to silence the Christian. It is a point that the enemies of the Christian faith love to use against the Christians. They say, "Yall just stay out of politics and let us have our way" Oh yes, they want the Christian to sit back and do nothing but love everyone as they set about to destroy the nation God established.

If God used Christianity, and Christians to go to war to establish this country, who thinks it will be kept a Christian country without Christians fighting for it? See? God establishes the Political Climate that will breed Christianity and the Gospel. And Christians are willing to give it away because, as JonC says, we just need to love everyone.

Well, when it goes away, and it's going, our Gospel will be hindered. Our missionary work will be hindered. Our freedom to worship and witness will be hindered.

Please consider these things.

Quantrill

You are right that God sets up governments.

When you say my convictions are "holier than thou" you condemn yourself.

I have not advocated that others adopt my convictions nor have I judged others for theirs.

The only reason for you to complain about my convictions being pious is that you are living below your own.

Christians have different convictions, and that is fine. We do not judge others for the values they hold and discuss our values openly.

Nominal Christians will always view believers who hold Christian convictions as being "holier than thou". They know enough about God to have convictions but are not committed enough to follow them.

Please consider these things.

 

[Revmitchell]

I’ve been reading 2 Timothy, where Paul tells us that anyone who hopes to follow Jesus cannot entangle himself in the affairs of the world (he says that no soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of every day life, so that he may please the One who enlisted him as a solider).

But when it comes to politics it seems that Christians run to hit the campaign trail. Neither political party holds a platform that proclaims Jesus as Savior and Lord. Neither political party has as its primary objective the gospel of Christ. Politics is simply not about Jesus. Politics is about power and influence. Politics is an integral part of the world system (an entanglement we are told to avoid).

Am I the only one that is starting to think that there are many people who claim to love and follow Jesus but place more emphasis on the Constitution than the Sermon on the Mount in their daily lives?

You are probably not the only but you are likely looking at it the wrong way. Remember context is king.

 

[kathleenmariekg]

Because I moved across state lines, and have been unable to process the documents necessary, it is actually illegal for me to vote anywhere, right now. The USA has a growing number of citizens that would break the law if they voted, and more that cannot vote without assistance that they don't know how to gain.

When I was younger, I spent some time in an Annabaptist church. And one of my parents was not American. I am white, but I have several times lived in communities where whites or Americans made up less than 3% of the population. I do not believe that training and preparation was not purposeful, and I do not discard everything that I learned from these people.

I did not vote. I know that I was not supposed to break the law to do that. The times that I have been called for jury duty are complicated and a story for another day.

Men are made in the image of God. Yes. That has been at the very forefront of my thinking right now. And to love God and love people. My decisions about what to do next, have to be made in the context of those three things. Single scriptures or even 10 scriptures cannot undue some contexts that begin to be revealed to us if we keep reading large volumes of scripture.

I have told children not to touch a stove. PERIOD. FULL STOP. ALL CAPS. But ... you get what I am saying. As we mature, we are expected to understand when we can touch the stove and when we cannot. There are some very firm scriptures directed at misbehaving babies playing around stoves.

The Annabaptists taught me that we are to follow the government until they ask us to do something that God has told us not to do. I have never encountered a situation, yet, that moved me to deviate from those instructions. In the army, you follow the instructions of lower level leaders, unless you are sure they have ordered you to do something that a higher level leader has not commanded. They taught me not to BLINDLY obey any human, even those in authority over me. They taught me to be very humble when I claimed that God's authority surpassed the lower level leader that I was defying, and to only disobey after much counsel and personal study.

I do not claim to know exactly what a Christian is supposed to do. Maybe we are not all being given the same instructions. maybe saying that is heresy.

When I get confused, I go back to my basic three. Man is made in the image of God. Jesus game me two commandments: love God and love people. I don't know what else to do right now.

 

[robustheologian]

The entanglement party is the one who made the guy that just got fired the practical object of their worship.

 

[JonC]

You are probably not the only but you are likely looking at it the wrong way. Remember context is king.

Context is king, I agree. You have a good point here.

And I agree that the verse itself does not prohibit public service or voting. At the same time, I do believe that we have to be very careful in how we identify. (Sometimes I read a verse and then my thoughts go on a tangent...Cause I'm the wanderer...Yeah, the wanderer...I roam around, around, around ).

I praise God that there are Christian politicians and government officials. At the same time I think that we need to be very careful not to take our eyes off our own identity in Christ and substitute that for a political affiliation. NOT that we cannot be affiliated with a party but that that affiliation should not form our identity.

I think that the extent to which we engage in these things is a matter of conscious and conviction. That is why I am not advocating that others assume my convictions and I do not judge theirs. Again, if no Christians served in government positions just imagine where our nation would be today.

I was thinking a lot about the 2016 election. Christians were telling other Christians that they had to vote for then candidate Trump because not to vote for him was a vote for Clinton. On the surface that made sense. But it makes sense only in a worldly way.

Abortion is my only reason for voting. But I do not have to vote for my stand to be against abortion. We have had Republican Presidents with Republican congresses and Republican senates yet abortion has not really changed since the 1970's (at least not for the better). I would be foolish to place my faith in a political party when I can be a voice not only for the lives of those children but also for Christ (something the GOP is not able to do).

But I do not judge those who are very active politically. I praise God that there are Christians in those areas and in both political parties. I am just convicted not to be one of those people.

 

[SGO]

How so?

I can oppose social injustice, killing children, and racism without becoming entangled in the affairs of the world.

Granted, probably not by joining a political party. But I will tell you now that men are created in God's image and we are to love one another.

JonC said: ↑
Christians should not get entangled with the World even in pursuit of a good end.

I can oppose social injustice, killing children, and racism without becoming entangled in the affairs of the world.



How do you oppose these evils?

 

[kathleenmariekg]

I have learned that there are two ways to fight and vote against abortion. Battles are not always won on the front lines.

I do not know the most recent statistics, but I do know that the infant and maternal death rates in the USA are very very high, and even higher for the poor and people of color. I also know that many married women with children are choosing abortion, especially poor women, because they are already FAILING to be able to take care of the children that they already have. I know that one of the leading or THE leading cause of death of pregnant women is murder by the father of the baby. When we work to combat these issues through charity or voting or whatever methods available to us, we fight abortion in this country.

NOT that we cannot be affiliated with a party but that that affiliation should not form our identity.

Identity is such an interesting topic. I don't have time today, but in the future, I would love to talk about the topic of identity in general.

 

[JonC]

JonC said: ↑
Christians should not get entangled with the World even in pursuit of a good end.

I can oppose social injustice, killing children, and racism without becoming entangled in the affairs of the world.



How do you oppose these evils?

I oppose those things by living for Christ (and Christ in me). Anyone I have a chance to talk to knows that I am a Christian and that I value life, and their life. I am a minority where I live (I am white, which makes up about 30% of the population). I treat others as I would have them treat me.

More than that, though, I know that how I treat them is how I treat Christ. I strive to be Christ to them with the knowledge that they are Christ to me in a very real sense (not in their actions but in mine).

I do not believe that Christians are called to correct the wrongs of the world. I also do not believe that Christians are called to change culture or a people. I believe that we are called to share the gospel and be a light to those whom God puts in our path.

It does no good to try to end abortion without loving those who would seek an abortion and trying to share the love of Christ in a way that may help remove them from a situation. It does no good to mandate laws governing racial actions. It does no good to oppose such vague notions as social injustice. IMHO we are to live as foreigners or sojourners during the time we have on this earth, being ambassadors for our true home rather than changing this world to our liking.

That's my two cents, anyway. I believe the scope of our responsibility are those God places in our path.

 

[SGO]

I oppose those things by living for Christ (and Christ in me). Anyone I have a chance to talk to knows that I am a Christian and that I value life, and their life. I am a minority where I live (I am white, which makes up about 30% of the population). I treat others as I would have them treat me.

More than that, though, I know that how I treat them is how I treat Christ. I strive to be Christ to them with the knowledge that they are Christ to me in a very real sense (not in their actions but in mine).

I do not believe that Christians are called to correct the wrongs of the world. I also do not believe that Christians are called to change culture or a people. I believe that we are called to share the gospel and be a light to those whom God puts in our path.

It does no good to try to end abortion without loving those who would seek an abortion and trying to share the love of Christ in a way that may help remove them from a situation. It does no good to mandate laws governing racial actions. It does no good to oppose such vague notions as social injustice. IMHO we are to live as foreigners or sojourners during the time we have on this earth, being ambassadors for our true home rather than changing this world to our liking.

That's my two cents, anyway. I believe the scope of our responsibility are those God places in our path.

That is a great set of principles to live by Mr. C and can surely say I don't even come close.
But I would like to know how, by doing these things do you specifically, head on, oppose these things individually:

social injustice, killing children, and racism without becoming "entangled" in the affairs of the world?

Perhaps without the entanglement?

By treating people as Christ would treat them as per your principles?

Do you think Christ, since you are His representative and a citizen in the USA, would not vote against abortion?
Especially since "the scope of our responsibility are those God places in our path" then voting in the political process is out of scope?