Politics vs The Kingdom

[JonC]

That is a great set of principles to live by Mr. C and can surely say I don't even come close.
But I would like to know how, by doing these things do you specifically, head on, oppose these things individually:

social injustice, killing children, and racism without becoming "entangled" in the affairs of the world?

Perhaps without the entanglement?

By treating people as Christ would treat them as per your principles?

Do you think Christ, since you are His representative and a citizen in the USA, would not vote against abortion?
Especially since "the scope of our responsibility are those God places in our path" then voting in the political process is out of scope?

I do not know ow if Christ would even vote. He offered no commentary on Roman law (they also did not view a fetes as a person and allowed abortion....which I would assume was a more dangerous prospect to the mother).

For me, I believe that we are responsible for our vote (not just for the reasons that sway us but for the platforms as a whole).

I could not vote without entanglement. I do not judge those who believe they can. We are accountable to be faithful to God, not men. That means others are not accountable to me as well.

 

[Quantrill]

I do not claim to know exactly what a Christian is supposed to do. Maybe we are not all being given the same instructions. maybe saying that is heresy.

When I get confused, I go back to my basic three. Man is made in the image of God. Jesus game me two commandments: love God and love people. I don't know what else to do right now.

We all are not being given the same instructions, without a doubt.

Apply your basic three to this. An intruder comes into your home to steal your child for body parts, or for perversion, or for profit. How do you love people then? How do you love God then? You say we are created in the image of God. True. Yet we are a fallen race. So, will you tell your child as they are being forced out the door that God loves you and you're praying for them? Will you tell the intruder that you love him and will be praying for him as he takes your child away?

Can you apply your basic three to that real scenario that can and does occur. Will you answer my questions in post #(30)?

Quantrill

 

[SGO]

I do not know ow if Christ would even vote. He offered no commentary on Roman law (they also did not view a fetes as a person and allowed abortion....which I would assume was a more dangerous prospect to the mother).

For me, I believe that we are responsible for our vote (not just for the reasons that sway us but for the platforms as a whole).

I could not vote without entanglement. I do not judge those who believe they can. We are accountable to be faithful to God, not men. That means others are not accountable to me as well.

Ok you can make fun of my saying Jesus might have voted if He were here.

Are you a citizen of the USA?
Did you receive a ballot?
Did the authorities request that you vote?
By not voting did you go against, for your conscience's sake, the powers that are ordained of God?

OK.
How about this one?

If you are involved in an accident and there is more than $500 worth of damage don't you have to report it to the authorities and (yuk) your insurance company?
Isn't that an involvement and if there is another party or parties involved aren't there often legal entanglements?
What if they say, "Oh snap! Here is a guy with a little dough.
Let's sue the pants off him."
Aren't you going to do something to protect yourself from this entanglement?
Or, wouldn't just allowing them to do that to you without cause be just like Jesus?

I hope something like that does not happen to any of us.

 

[JonC]

Ok you can make fun of my saying Jesus might have voted if He were here.

Are you a citizen of the USA?
Did you receive a ballot?
Did the authorities request that you vote?
By not voting did you go against, for your conscience's sake, the powers that are ordained of God?

OK.
How about this one?

If you are involved in an accident and there is more than $500 worth of damage don't you have to report it to the authorities and (yuk) your insurance company?
Isn't that an involvement and if there is another party or parties involved aren't there often legal entanglements?
What if they say, "Oh snap! Here is a guy with a little dough.
Let's sue the pants off him."
Aren't you going to do something to protect yourself from this entanglement?
Or, wouldn't just allowing them to do that to you without cause be just like Jesus?

I hope something like that does not happen to any of us.

Hold up...I was not making fun of anything.

I was saying that Jesus lived in a time that had similar problems.

Rome allowed abortion. They took the Greek position that life did not begin until after birth.

Jesus did not challenge the secular government.

I am not saying we have no interactions in and with the world. I am saying that I do not believe we should become entangled with the affairs of the world.

I am also not suggesting others need to adopt my convictions. If you don't that is perfectly fine. If you do that's ok too.

I do not believe in suing people. If I were sued I'd quote my grandmother - you can't get blood out of a turnip.

 

[SGO]

Hold up...I was not making fun of anything.

I was saying that Jesus lived in a time that had similar problems.

Rome allowed abortion. They took the Greek position that life did not begin until after birth.

Jesus did not challenge the secular government.

I am not saying we have no interactions in and with the world. I am saying that I do not believe we should become entangled with the affairs of the world.

I am also not suggesting others need to adopt my convictions. If you don't that is perfectly fine. If you do that's ok too.

I do not believe in suing people. If I were sued I'd quote my grandmother - you can't get blood out of a turnip.

Yes you took a weaker point in my "argument" and spent most of your time defeating it without answering the main point.

If you are not suggesting I adopt your convictions why post anything at all?
Aren't you trying to influence just a little bit?

You get entangled and sometimes ticked off in the theology discussions.
People over there sometimes make it a point to goad you.
Aren't you trying to influence and clarify your opinions over there?
That is entanglement for Christ?

You have to get entangled, even without your consent, in this life in other things outside of the faith is all I'm saying.
And of course I'm upset that our government sanctions the murder of those that will have no chance whatsoever to be "entangled".

Paul said to slaves if they had a chance to be free to take it (1 Corinthians 7:21).
Doesn't that involve entanglement in the system?
Entanglement for good.

It's not about you suing people it's about them suing you without cause.
You would just give in and pay your house and life savings with not only you but your family suffering for it?
Lawyers like to squeeze for a drop of blood and they would not stop suing you if you quoted your grandma.

 

[kathleenmariekg]

Apply your basic three to this. An intruder comes into your home to steal your child for body parts, or for perversion, or for profit. How do you love people then? How do you love God then? You say we are created in the image of God. ...
Quantrill

I believe that neglect is a sin, both neglect of those people and things entrusted into my care, and neglect of myself.

I do have permission to guard myself and my people and sometimes even my things. But I would need to use the least force and judgement possible as I did that. I need to remember that the person I am guarding against is a human that might be saved in the future. I want him to live if he can. It is not MY place to judge or punish, but I can and must be a good steward.

 

[JonC]

Yes you took a weaker point in my "argument" and spent most of your time defeating it without answering the main point.

If you are not suggesting I adopt your convictions why post anything at all?
Aren't you trying to influence just a little bit?

You get entangled and sometimes ticked off in the theology discussions.
People over there sometimes make it a point to goad you.
Aren't you trying to influence and clarify your opinions over there?
That is entanglement for Christ?

You have to get entangled, even without your consent, in this life in other things outside of the faith is all I'm saying.
And of course I'm upset that our government sanctions the murder of those that will have no chance whatsoever to be "entangled".

Paul said to slaves if they had a chance to be free to take it (1 Corinthians 7:21).
Doesn't that involve entanglement in the system?
Entanglement for good.

It's not about you suing people it's about them suing you without cause.
You would just give in and pay your house and life savings with not only you but your family suffering for it?
Lawyers like to squeeze for a drop of blood and they would not stop suing you if you quoted your grandma.

The reason I post is for people to consider my views and respond with theirs so I can consider their points.

The problem with always being in attack mode on forums is it is counter-productive and devisive. I did not join this forum to persuade people to my way of thinking.

In fact, Paul teaches that we are to respect differences in conscience and not persuade others to our views.

I am just pointing out how the church has changed over the years. We often think of Anabaptists as holding a position similar to my convictions, but many do not realize the early Church often held a similar view (this would change in the early fourth century).


Tertullian wrote to the Romans around the year 195: “In us, all zeal in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead. So we have no pressing inducement to take part in your public meetings, nor is there anything more entirely foreign to us than the affairs of State.”

 

[JonC]

Nope. Politics is part of occupying until He returns. This nation went to hell because The Church withdrew from politics. When we were a Godly nation, The Church dominated politics. Church withdrew and secularism filled the vacuum.

I've been thinking about this. Like I said, I am glad we have Christian politicians. I do not judge them but praise God for their service.. But I have to follow my convictions.

We also have to keep in mind that the Church was corrupted by politics and from the fourth century on that has plagued the world.

There's an old joke....what do you get when you mix politics with Christianity? Politics.

 

[SGO]

The reason I post is for people to consider my views and respond with theirs so I can consider their points.

The problem with always being in attack mode on forums is it is counter-productive and devisive. I did not join this forum to persuade people to my way of thinking.

In fact, Paul teaches that we are to respect differences in conscience and not persuade others to our views.

I am just pointing out how the church has changed over the years. We often think of Anabaptists as holding a position similar to my convictions, but many do not realize the early Church often held a similar view (this would change in the early fourth century).


Tertullian wrote to the Romans around the year 195: “In us, all zeal in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead. So we have no pressing inducement to take part in your public meetings, nor is there anything more entirely foreign to us than the affairs of State.”

Thank you for taking the time to clarify.

This quote:

In fact, Paul teaches that we are to respect differences in conscience and not persuade others to our views.

That is about eating meat or being a vegetarian, right?

You think it's about everything?

 

[kathleenmariekg]

There's an old joke....what do you get when you mix politics with Christianity? Politics.

I have not heard this. Thank you!

 

[Benjamin]

I believe that neglect is a sin, both neglect of those people and things entrusted into my care, and neglect of myself.

I do have permission to guard myself and my people and sometimes even my things. But I would need to use the least force and judgement possible as I did that. I need to remember that the person I am guarding against is a human that might be saved in the future. I want him to live if he can. It is not MY place to judge or punish, but I can and must be a good steward.

I like that, it is a little gentler than I probably would have put it, but it expresses my feelings quite well.

 

[kathleenmariekg]

I like that, it is a little gentler than I probably would have put it, but it expresses my feelings quite well.

I am a 95 pound women. When I say less gentle things, people laugh so hard at me they cry, and sometimes fall to the floor. But I've been told by some very large men, that "pound for pound", I am kinda not gentle. They tend to use vulgar words that I wouldn't repeat here, but they meant it as a compliment, I think.

Life is not always easy when we leave behind theory and the rubber hits the road. Thankfully God knows we are human and there is such a thing as grace.

 

[Quantrill]

I believe that neglect is a sin, both neglect of those people and things entrusted into my care, and neglect of myself.

I do have permission to guard myself and my people and sometimes even my things. But I would need to use the least force and judgement possible as I did that. I need to remember that the person I am guarding against is a human that might be saved in the future. I want him to live if he can. It is not MY place to judge or punish, but I can and must be a good steward.

Yes, you need to use appropriate force. Sometimes that may involve killing someone. So, to love God and love people does not remove your responsibility in dealing with fallen man when he is a threat to you and yours.

Politics addresses the same. In fact, that is the very core, the very beginning of human government. You say we are to love God and man because man is created in the image of God. Then God says, (Gen. 9:5-6), that man is to kill any man who murders another because we are in God's image. That is the origin of human government. God was establishing government and politics. Man was responsible to God to execute his fellow man. Why? Because it slows down the decay process of fallen man that resulted in the flood.

But, then you have those that say, "we shouldn't have the death penalty cause we just need to love God and man". Or they say, "we shouldn't get involved so much concerning politics because we just need to love God and man." It sounds so spiritual, but it is actually ignoring their responsibility that God has given.

Quantrill

 

[Benjamin]

I am a 95 pound women. When I say less gentle things, people laugh so hard at me they cry, and sometimes fall to the floor. But I've been told by some very large men, that "pound for pound", I am kinda not gentle. They tend to use vulgar words that I wouldn't repeat here, but they meant it as a compliment, I think.

Life is not always easy when we leave behind theory and the rubber hits the road. Thankfully God knows we are human and there is such a thing as grace.

I have a saying, “You have to be a strong man to be a gentleman.” …so true in many ways, such as you need physical strength when gently setting down a heavy object or for extending grace which comes from a position of spiritual strength. Yes, there are many forms of strength and it comes in all sizes.

 

[JonC]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify.

This quote:

In fact, Paul teaches that we are to respect differences in conscience and not persuade others to our views.

That is about eating meat or being a vegetarian, right?

You think it's about everything?

It was never about eating meat or being a vegetarian. It was about eating meat and drinking wine that had been offered to idols (some viewed this as participating in idolatry while others....like Paul....did not as idols were meaningless).

I do believe the principle is applicable beyond eating meat offered to idols.

This is a Baptist distinctive and I am Baptist. Baptist theology holds these types of issues to be matters of conscience. "Soul liberty" ("freedom of conscience") is one key feature of what makes a Baptist a Baptist.

 

[SGO]

It was never about eating meat or being a vegetarian. It was about eating meat and drinking wine that had been offered to idols (some viewed this as participating in idolatry while others....like Paul....did not as idols were meaningless).

I do believe the principle is applicable beyond eating meat offered to idols.

This is a Baptist distinctive and I am Baptist. Baptist theology holds these types of issues to be matters of conscience. "Soul liberty" ("freedom of conscience") is one key feature of what makes a Baptist a Baptist.

Ok wine and meat to idols and sitting in an idol restaurant while someone with a weaker conscience watches and is destroyed.

So why as a matter of conscience, do you make public posts and do not show how you as a citizen don't have to fight abortion by your vote?

Your "soldier's" conscience is destroying me.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hold up...I was not making fun of anything.

I was saying that Jesus lived in a time that had similar problems.

Rome allowed abortion. They took the Greek position that life did not begin until after birth.

Jesus did not challenge the secular government.

I am not saying we have no interactions in and with the world. I am saying that I do not believe we should become entangled with the affairs of the world.

I am also not suggesting others need to adopt my convictions. If you don't that is perfectly fine. If you do that's ok too.

I do not believe in suing people. If I were sued I'd quote my grandmother - you can't get blood out of a turnip.

Define entanglement

 

[JonC]

Ok wine and meat to idols and sitting in an idol restaurant while someone with a weaker conscience watches and is destroyed.

So why as a matter of conscience, do you make public posts and do not show how you as a citizen don't have to fight abortion by your vote?

Your "soldier's" conscience is destroying me.

The reason I post my beliefs because that is the purpose of the board.

If you are offended by people's beliefs then this is simply not the place for you (and since you agreed to the terms of the Baptist Board to become a member that opinion may call into question your character).

This board was designed as a place where Christians could come together and learn about each other (edification) and for fellowship. As such, members are encouraged to post and explain their views and beliefs.

People of a "weaker faith" who believe that such discussions "destroy" them really have no business being on a public forum.

As my conviction that the Church and Christians rather than the GOP is the vehicle for spiritual change is something that you cannot emotionally handle, something that does you damage, you probably should never have joined an online Christian forum.

You also need to remember that not only is this a Christian forum, but this is a Baptist forum. So "Christian liberty" is something that is supported and encouraged rather than repressed. This is an appropriate forum for me to express my conviction that I will most likely not vote for a party that has appointed the majority of justices since 1970 and has at times controlled every branch yet did not or could not stop abortion. Since that makes you feel emotionally or spiritually damaged you most likely should leave and spend time in a church maturing spiritually so that you can withstand people who hold different views prior to joining another forum.

 

[JonC]

Define entanglement

I'd say to blend or twist together. As a Christian I do not want people to view me as representative of the Republican party (although I did vote Republican). I want to be identified with Christ. Politics (I believe) is a worldly system (it seeks change by a means other than the gospel).

That does not mean I judge Christians who are vocally Republican. That is their business just as judging me would be wrong of them. But I believe that we can talk about both sides and understand one another's reasoning.

Part of the issue is I am (and always have been) apolitical. The only issue that drives me to the polls is abortion. And from my standpoint the Republican party has held all the cards yet failed several times to make a change towards ending the murder of children (GOP Presidents have appointed the majority of the justices since 1970, they have at times during this period controlled the Presidency, the House, and the Senate). So I no longer feel comfortable placing my trust and support in such worldly institutions. I do not suggest others follow my convictions....I believe they should follow their own. But it would be interesting if we could discuss them rather than have members (not you, Rev) simply complain that I voice mine.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'd say to blend or twist together. As a Christian I do not want people to view me as representative of the Republican party (although I did vote Republican). I want to be identified with Christ. Politics (I believe) is a worldly system (it seeks change by a means other than the gospel).

That does not mean I judge Christians who are vocally Republican. That is their business just as judging me would be wrong of them. But I believe that we can talk about both sides and understand one another's reasoning.

Part of the issue is I am (and always have been) apolitical. The only issue that drives me to the polls is abortion. And from my standpoint the Republican party has held all the cards yet failed several times to make a change towards ending the murder of children (GOP Presidents have appointed the majority of the justices since 1970, they have at times during this period controlled the Presidency, the House, and the Senate). So I no longer feel comfortable placing my trust and support in such worldly institutions. I do not suggest others follow my convictions....I believe they should follow their own. But it would be interesting if we could discuss them rather than have members (not you, Rev) simply complain that I voice mine.

I hear people say all the time how the GOP has failed to make changes to end abortion. Couldnt be further from the truth.