Poll: #3, Suicide & Lapsi

[Ed Edwards]

I'm not sure I'm following your question.
Currently we are being sanctified if we are believers.
Once we go to be with the Lord and are glorified,
the sanctification process will have been fulfilled,
as we won't still continue to be "made holy"...we will be glorified.

Amen, Brother Webdog -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rom 8:30-31 (KJV1611 Edition):
Moreouer, whom he did predestinate, them he
also called: and whom he called, them he also iustified:
and whom he iustified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall wee then say to these things?
If God be for vs, who can bee against vs?

Interesting, this scripture goes right from
justification to glorification and doesn't mention
the daily JESUS SAVES called 'scantification'.

Justification - initial JESUS SAVES
+ scantification - daily JESUS SAVES
+ glorification - when Jesus comes again JESUS SAVES

The sum is SALVATION - eternal in nature, Jesus in origin.

Indeed: What a Mighty God we Serve! :godisgood:

 

[Claudia_T]

John 17:
17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


The idea is that we are supposed to be "subject" to Christ "in everything" and when we see things in the Bible (the Word) we are supposed to HEED what it says... just like a wife is subject to her husband.

This is how we are sanctified "through the truth" which is "the Word"... the Scriptures. Sanctification is a cleaning process... READ:


Eph:5:
24: Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


the end result of sanctification is to become "holy and without blemish"


HOWEVER to have a more balanced view of this entire "washing" process, I believe we must continually regard it in our hearts as something that THE HOLY SPIRIT is doing within us.... it isnt of ourselves, lest we should boast:

Titus 3:
5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost


But we MUST cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe the soul is already been cleansed up and when death comes it will go to Heaven. In other words already "glorified". The creature itself shall "also" be delivered from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the children of God.

 

[Claudia_T]

There IS this passage too though... telling us that it isnt by "taking thought" that we will manage to add to our stature... I dont think that means just physical stature...

Luke 12:
25: And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26: If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.


I like to try and find everything I can on a subject and then assess it from there, "comparing scripture with scripture" so I come away with a more balanced view of things..


1Cor:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Ed Edwards]

John 17:
17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


The idea is that we are supposed to be "subject" to Christ "in everything" and when we see things in the Bible (the Word) we are supposed to HEED what it says... just like a wife is subject to her husband.

This is how we are sanctified "through the truth" which is "the Word"... the Scriptures. Sanctification is a cleaning process... READ:


Eph:5:
24: Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


the end result of sanctification is to become "holy and without blemish"


HOWEVER to have a more balanced view of this entire "washing" process, I believe we must continually regard it in our hearts as something that THE HOLY SPIRIT is doing within us.... it isnt of ourselves, lest we should boast:

Titus 3:
5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost


But we MUST cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

Amen, Sister Claudia -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

What happens if you slip up from time to time?
What if you deny Christ under torture (i.e. Lapsi)
do you loose your salvation & need to do the first works again?
What if you accidently kill your self (one form of suicide)
instantly so you can't get WASHED UP?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I heard many baptists include baptist pastor commited suicide.

Claudia_T says, we have to be careful and do not judge their salvation after their commit suicide occured, let God judge them. Well, Claudia is right.

However, I fear that many baptists who believe in eternal security, alreadu commit suicide, are in hell.

Because, a person either 'righteous' or 'unrighteous' who do commit suicide is SELF decision against God's will. Also, a perosn, who did commit suicide was in a long or short term of process with depression while they are down in the valley toward "doom". Satan actual WANT every preson who is plan to commit suicide to destruction their life. And they who do commit suicide are not made to the "finish line" of Matthew 7. Are now in hell, because they FAILED to endure it(Matt 10:22; & 24:13), they easily give up their fight of their faith. They think, they are in heaven, because they are already saved anyway that is so called OSAS. That is a deception doctrine.

That why I am against OSAS doctrine. Planning think of do commit suicide is DANGEROUS of facing eternality final destiny where we shall spend beyod our death.

As if I am pastor I would advicew them DO NOT thinking of plan to do commit suicide. This is dangerous! Bible urges us, we have to LOOK UP at Jesus daily. Because Christ never forsake or leave us, he always love us. Let's look up at Him daily.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Claudia_T]

I heard many baptists include baptist pastor commited suicide.

Claudia_T says, we have to be careful and do not judge their salvation after their commit suicide occured, let God judge them. Well, Claudia is right.

However, I fear that many baptists who believe in eternal security, alreadu commit suicide, are in hell.

Because, a person either 'righteous' or 'unrighteous' who do commit suicide is SELF decision against God's will. Also, a perosn, who did commit suicide was in a long or short term of process with depression while they are down in the valley toward "doom". Satan actual WANT every preson who is plan to commit suicide to destruction their life. And they who do commit suicide are not made to the "finish line" of Matthew 7. Are now in hell, because they FAILED to endure it(Matt 10:22; & 24:13), they easily give up their fight of their faith. They think, they are in heaven, because they are already saved anyway that is so called OSAS. That is a deception doctrine.

That why I am against OSAS doctrine. Planning think of do commit suicide is DANGEROUS of facing eternality final destiny where we shall spend beyod our death.

As if I am pastor I would advicew them DO NOT thinking of plan to do commit suicide. This is dangerous! Bible urges us, we have to LOOK UP at Jesus daily. Because Christ never forsake or leave us, he always love us. Let's look up at Him daily.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

AMEN to all you said there!

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
As if I am pastor I would advicew them DO NOT thinking of plan to do commit suicide. This is dangerous! Bible urges us, we have to LOOK UP at Jesus daily. Because Christ never forsake or leave us, he always love us. Let's look up at Him daily.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Why would you look up to such a Jesus if
they were weak ONCE when their child is being tortured
and denied Christ ONCE and that Jesus throws them into
the Devils hell to roast eternally?

Matthew 24:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
But he that shall endure vnto the end,
the same shall be saued.

Is a logical argument of the form:
A. If a person endures unto the end,
Then that person shall be saved at the end.

This statement is true (it is proved by Matthew 24:13
and other scriptures).

There is another logical statement that has
the same truth value as statement A above.

B. If a person is not saved at the end,
Then then that person did not endure unto the end.

So the argument B is TRUE just because
the argument A is TRUE.

But there is a third type of argument that
does NOT automatically have the same truth value
as argument A. Argument C must be proved, even
though statement A and statement B are correct.

C. If a person endures not unto the end,
Then that person shall not be saved at the end.

Feel free to prove argument C from the Bible, if you can.
To say that argument A and argument C mean the
same thing is a LOGICAL ERROR.Note to those ignorant (don't know) about logic:
the preceeding logic principles are examples of
logic (a branch of Mathematics) facts. They are NOT
debatable (they probably can be explained better).
Also, argument C is NOT proved neither True nor False by the
logical facts presented above.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib of 100% of people who suicide:
// ... They think, they are in heaven, because they are already
saved anyway that is so called OSAS. That is a deception doctrine.
That why I am against OSAS doctrine.//

Why then this scripture?

Galations 5:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
For brethren, ye haue beene called vnto liberty,
onely vse not libertie for an occasion to the flesh,
but by loue serue one another.

This scripture shows those who beleive the OSAS doctrine
that OSAS is no license to sin. OSAS people who don't know this
scripture probably aren't saved yet.

Remember OS = ONCE SAVED, not
'once convicted'.


No consider being saved at the end?
Where is the end?
John 3:16-17 show that salvation is forever.
Forever means no end. So there is no 'at the
end of forever' at all. There is only one end
of salvation that humans can inspect:
the BEGINNING END of salvation.
When I was Regenerated by Christ, when I
was Justified by Christ - my SALVATION
was at the beginning end. I was just as saved that
day in April 1952 as I am 55 years later (less two months)
in 2007. I was just as saved that day in April 1952 as
I will be on the next day i'm Scantificied Saved by Jesus
(i.e. on 13 Jan 2007)

I was just as saved that day in April 1952 as I will be when
I'm Glorified by Jesus at His return to come get me.
OR
I was just as saved that day in April 1952 as I will be when
i die and go to be with Jesus.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Ed - Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[Claudia_T]

You're Funny, Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

He who posts last, has their name in the Threads in Forum
index longer. :flower:

 

[Claudia_T]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I seeeeee.... some sneaky snake stuff going on there

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This passage shows that
'be saved' = 'should not perish, but haue euerlasting life'

Your equation here is not what the verse says.. Your are equating 'should not perish,' with 'is saved'.

This is not what the verse is saying. What it is saying is that believers should not perish, not will not perish. Many believe in Him and still go to hell. Read Matthew 7:21- 23. Clearly these people believed in Christ.

Your equation should therefore read 'be saved = 'will not perish, but have everlasting life'

 

[Ed Edwards]

double post

 

[Ed Edwards]

Your equation here is not what the verse says.. Your are equating 'should not perish,' with 'is saved'.

This is not what the verse is saying. What it is saying is that believers should not perish, not will not perish. Many believe in Him and still go to hell. Read Matthew 7:21- 23. Clearly these people believed in Christ.

Your equation should therefore read 'be saved = 'will not perish, but have everlasting life'

I respectfully disagree.
What I said is exactly what the John 3:16-17 scirpture
is talking about. Your equation is correct also.


Joh 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his
only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth
in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into
the world to condemne the world: but that
the world through him might be saued.

'should not' is translated from Strong's #G3361:

G3361
μή
mē
may
A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756
expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not,
(conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying
a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative
one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid,
+ lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor,
[can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without.
Often used in compounds in substantially the same
relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364,
G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.

In this usage
'be saved = 'will not perish, but have everlasting life'
means the same as:'be saved = 'should not perish, but have everlasting life'

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I do not see 'will not' in the str4ongs definition.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I don't see 'should not', but that is what the KJV Translators put.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If John 3:16 is saying whosoever believeth will be saved, then Revelation 21:8 is a lie. For Revelation 21:8 tells us that all drunkards will have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone.

Even a drunkard will tell you he believes in Jesus. Now, is that drunkard saved? If he continues in his drunkenness night after night, he isn't.