Poll: #3, Suicide & Lapsi

[Claudia_T]

Let's seeeee... this is just a thought (Im just trying this out to see how it would be to be on the other side of this debate)

What about the woman caught in adultery. Jesus comes by and those guys throw her out there for Him to condemn and He forgives her.

What if when they threw her onto the ground she whops her head against the pavement and dies before Jesus got the chance to tell her that she was forgiven?

Would this woman have gone to Hell?

Would her salvation depend upon how angry those men were and thus how hard they threw her to the ground?


And furthermore, all you right wingers say that the Thief on the Cross just couldnt come down off the cross to do good works, and so using the Thief on the Cross isnt a good example for not having to do good works for salvation.

and so using that logic then... would this woman caught in adultery and who just happened to be unfortunate as to get killed just before Jesus got there to forgive her be lost just because she was incapable of being in the right place at the right time? The Thief on the Cross was helpless too.

Claudia

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Apparently the woman had a repentant heart and the Lord knew it... He does know the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

 

[Claudia_T]

well then wouldnt that same principle sometimes apply for a murderer as well? Or a Lapsi? Of course this woman wasnt caught IN the act of adultery but yet she hadnt yet been forgiven of her sin.

 

[Claudia_T]

well I dont know, I think I will leave this to the experts... and now back to Ed.
(you think this is easy but its not, this is more difficult than it appears to come up with this situational stuff)

 

[rbell]

[Removed material quoted from another poster that had to be edited out.]

Translation: I believe in objective truth. Situational ethics is wrong...unless my buddy does something wrong. Then, it's because he's not the only one.

I have a brilliant idea: why don't we all quit throwing out junk like, "You deny God's Word!" and questioning the salvation of others. And let's talk like grown folk...Christian grown folk at that.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Claudia,

Nowhere have I said that a murderer or a lapsi could not be saved. If they are truly repentant, salvation is a given.
'and such were some of you'. These people in 1 Corinthians 6 are shown to have turned from the sins Paul afore mentioned. And once they turnee from their sin and to Christ, they were no longer murderers, etc.
So, to say a murderer will be in heaven, or lapsi, or any other sinner who has not repented is contrary to God's Word.

But if they are not repentant, and don't confess that they have sinned, Christ will be faithful to His Word. He will deny them.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

rbell,

Grow up.

 

[Claudia_T]

well yeah I know that... repentant people could be saved...

 

[Claudia_T]

Jn:8:
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


but that had to happen didnt it?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Jn:8:11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


but that had to happen didnt it?

Trodding under foot the blood of Christ, maybe?

Now I know that at the point you mention in John 5 Christ had not yet gone to the cross. What do you suppose the 'worse thing' was?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The story of the woman caught in adultery is an interestingone.

She did not have time to take anything to a priest for sacrifice.
Where was the man if she was caught 'in the very act'?

Jesus must have seen a sincere repentance in that woman to have said, 'Neither do I condemn thee.'

But then He added, 'Go, and sin no more'. What would have been the 'worse thing' in her case? The people had already determined that she should be killed. So, something worse than death could have been pronounced on her?

 

[DHK]

Then you make Jesus out to be a liar! For Jesus said


One can deny Christ in one's heart, and still do good works making others who see him think he is a Christian. Many will say 'so and so did a Christian act today'.

But tthe one who speaks the very words, 'I deny Him' audibly, in the ears of others, Christ has promised to deny before the Father.

Christ taught principles. You make God to be out like the Islamic God--cold, capricious, cruel, impersonal, and most of all legalistic. Yes, I can say the same thing: I am thankful I don't serve that God. God is not legalistic. You use the same reasoning as the legalistic Church of Christ does. They believe that baptistm is a requirement for salvation. Logically then the thief on the cross was not saved even though Jesus said he was. This is the type of logic you use. You are a legalistic and make God a capricious legalistic in your own thwarted theology because you fail to understand the Word of God.

You live in North Carolina, and probably have never been outside America. Cozy little state NC is. I've been there, and lived there. But I've also lived in an Islamic nation that was ruled by a dictator who put the nation under martial law and brought iin Shariah Law at the same time. The conditions were ripe for a government similar to the Taliban of Afghanistan. I saw first hand what happened to Muslims who conveted to Christianity. Their families turned against them and tried to kill them. They had to flee for their very lives. A new Christian's spirit under such circumstances would not be hard to break. But you can sit in your little theological arm chair and spout off Scripture that you really don't understand, having never had a blood-thirsty Muslim put a knife to your throat saying: "recant or be killed!" Not every convert "breaks" but there are some that do. The Bible says "the Lord knows them that are His.
I praise God that it doesn't say "'diggin' knows them that are the Lord's"
But you act like that is what the Bible says.
You act like you are God.
You put yourself in the position of God.
You are telling us that you know who is going to heaven and who is not.
That is the heght of arrogance!! Who gave you the position of God!
In some Islamic nations the penalty is just as bad for the one who leads a Muslim to Christ as it is for the Muslm who converts to Christ. Why not take up the challenge of the Great Commission and be a missionary to some of these needy nations who need the gospel so desperately.

But be assured, if you deny Him before men, under duress or not, and you die before you repent and confess, He will be true to His Word. He will deny you before God.

Again your ignorance of Scripture is astonishing.
First, that is a principe; not a hard and fast rule. God is not a legalistic God.
Second, you fail to take into consideration the context.
The context in Matthew, was that he was speaking to the 12 who were being sent out to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. The Jews were looking for the Messiah. Mark puts it in a better context.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

When will Jesus come with his holy angels in the glory of the Father?
It will be at the Second Coming when He comes for the Jewish nation.
He was speaking to the Jews. This fits into the context of those Jews who will be enduring the troubles of the Tribulation. Read the context carefully. Certainly there are applications that we can make today. But the Bible only has one interpretation. It has many applications; but one interpretation, and your interpretation is false. You have taken Scripture out of context and built a false doctrine on it.

 

[rbell]

The Bible says "the Lord knows them that are His.
I praise God that it doesn't say "'diggin' knows them that are the Lord's"
But you act like that is what the Bible says.
You act like you are God.
You put yourself in the position of God.
You are telling us that you know who is going to heaven and who is not.
That is the heght of arrogance!! Who gave you the position of God!

Great post, DHK.

And DITW...your childish admonition to "grow up" being duly noted, keep in mind it is you...not I...who engages in theological fit-throwing such as impugning another's character, questioning another's salvation, or disparaging another's walk with God. Now if you'll pardon me, I've got to take some Geritol. I'm grown.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Your theology allows people to deny God and still go to heaven... as long as they are not Jews. Amazing!



I see you still have not answered the question...

Do you keep the commandments?



You assume I have never been outside of the state of NC, yet I have been across this great continent, and have ministered to people in other continents as well. So, you need to retract that false accusation as well.

It is amazing how much you accuse me and others on this board of not being saved, or not knowing scripture, yet you you want us to refrain from questioning other's walks.

Well, my Bible tells me I can make judgments. The body judges those who claim to be within the body. If a man claims to be of Christ, he ought so to walk. Jesus said we will know the tree by its fruit.

Just as God revealed to prophets of old what was in the heart of man, He still does today through His Holy Word.

Also, you fail to realize, the Gospel is to all men, not the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles.

 

[Claudia_T]

Now wait a minute here.

This entire thread starts out asking with a poll who WE THINK is going to be lost or saved.

If we cant just here theoretically say who we think would be saved or lost then what are we supposed to do? Just agree with what we are "supposed to say"?

Its not right to have a thread asking our opinion on this then condemn us if we give our opinion.

Not only THAT but whats the difference in us saying WE THINK someone will be LOST and YOU saying YOU THINK someone will be saved?

Who made YOU the judge? anymore than we are?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Now wait a minute here.

This entire thread starts out asking with a poll who WE THINK is going to be lost or saved.

If we cant just here theoretically say who we think would be saved or lost then what are we supposed to do? Just agree with what we are "supposed to say"?

Its not right to have a thread asking our opinion on this then condemn us if we give our opinion.

Great observation, Claudia.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Happens to me all the time.

 

[DHK]

Now wait a minute here.

This entire thread starts out asking with a poll who WE THINK is going to be lost or saved.

If we cant just here theoretically say who we think would be saved or lost then what are we supposed to do? Just agree with what we are "supposed to say"?

Then every statement should be stated as an opinion and not as a statement of fact. If posters are stating so-called opinions dogmatically as if they are the sole arbitrators of truth, then those posts should be deleted or the thread should be shut down.

This forum is a debate forum. Debate is usually based on people's views. People have convictions. If the poll was on "your opinion of the Sabbath Day," would you merely state your opinion--that is "my opinion is, but it could change at any moment..."

 

[DHK]

Your theology allows people to deny God and still go to heaven... as long as they are not Jews. Amazing!

Is that what I said? Don't take my words out of context.

I see you still have not answered the question...
Do you keep the commandments?

Why should I answer this question when:
1. It is to vague to answer--it is not a clear question.
2. Whatever I will answer, you will take my words and twist it to mean something I didn't mean to say.

You assume I have never been outside of the state of NC, yet I have been across this great continent, and have ministered to people in other continents as well. So, you need to retract that false accusation as well.

Note the key words in your statement above:
"you assume" I can't make a false accusation on an assumption. Yes, it was an assumption. I don't know where you have been, nor how much you have traveled. I made an assumption. For the sake of clarity, I will ask a more direct question: Have you ever lived any length of time in an Islamic nation?

It is amazing how much you accuse me and others on this board of not being saved, or not knowing scripture, yet you you want us to refrain from questioning other's walks.

I often question a person's lack of knowledge of the Scripture. It is evident in posters all over this board. Is there something wrong with that?
Have I questioned your salvation? If it appears that I do, my statements are usually cushioned with an "if". If this is what you believe, then..." Or I draw a comparison.

Well, my Bible tells me I can make judgments. The body judges those who claim to be within the body. If a man claims to be of Christ, he ought so to walk. Jesus said we will know the tree by its fruit.

Your Bible never tells you that you have the right to judge a man's heart. Therein you are wrong, and again show your lack of understanding of the Scripture. Here is what the Bible says:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--Who knows the heart? Only God knows the heart. You do not. You cannot see into man's heart. You are not omiscient. You can't make that claim to be God.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
--Who searches the heart? Only God has that perogative; not you. You don't have that ability. If you continue to say that you do, you are claiming to have an attribute that God alone has, and that is akin to blasphemy.

Go back and study the context of Mat.7:20 which you alluded to. You shall know them by their fruits. Know who? The answer is false prophets. That is what Christ is talking about. Read the context. How do you know a false prophet? What fruit? The fruit is doctrine. I know a false doctrine by the fruit of his doctrine. Jesus said about the false teachers of the Pharisees: "Beware of the leaven (false doctrine) of the Pharisees" I know that Benny Hinn is a false prophet, not by the works that he does, but by the false doctrine that he teaches. Read the context before you put your foot in your mouth and quote Scripture out of context.

Just as God revealed to prophets of old what was in the heart of man, He still does today through His Holy Word.

No, he does not. Read Heb.1:1,2.
I won't quote it here for lack of time and space. God spoke to the prophets of the OT, in different ways and manners than he speaks to us in this NT age. And He does not reveal to us what is in the heart of man. Only God knows the heart. Don't presume to be God.

Also, you fail to realize, the Gospel is to all men, not the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles.

I never said any differently. What makes you think so. Quote me if you or going to make me say something I never said.

 

[Claudia_T]

well I dont know about that. If you read the whole of Matthew 7 in context and you read the last part of that and the first part of the next it seems to be talking as well about a different aspect of fruits...

Matthew 7:
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: