Poll: The Forgiveness Thread

[LadyEagle]

Pastor Larry said (in the Forgiveness vs Reconciliation Thread):

It technically requires two people to forgive. Just as God does not forgive those who don't ask, so we don't forgive those who don't ask. Remember, God is the standard (eph 4:32). That doesn't mean we harbor a grudge. We should have a willingness to forgive and should not bear a grudge, but we can't forgive until someone asks.

My view is that it only takes one person to forgive, whether or not the other person asks for forgiveness. Some people never repent when they have wronged us. Others may not even know when they have wronged us. Are we to forgive the other person regardless if they repent or only if they repent?

Scriptural reasons, please.

 

[Brother Bob]

Pastor Larry said (in the Forgiveness vs Reconciliation Thread):



My view is that it only takes one person to forgive, whether or not the other person asks for forgiveness. Some people never repent when they have wronged us. Others may not even know when they have wronged us. Are we to forgive the other person regardless if they repent or onlyl if they repent?

Scriptural reasons, please.

I see the Pastor's point, of not only seven but seventy time seven. I have in the past used it for a season, but after a while, I would let go of any bad feelings I might have against anyone.
Well, I suppose it takes you and the Lord to forgive, but one could forgive without the other party, I think. Reconciliation, is another case though, it does take both sides to reconcile.

BBob,

 

[SaggyWoman]

Forgiving someone requires my action. What happens in the relationship after forgiveness requires dual action, but my forgiveness doesn't.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Me forgiving someone is honestly more for my benefit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Just to be clear, I have not said that forgiveness and reconciliation are the same. They are related, but not identical. My point in the other thread was that no one seemed to be interacting with the biblical data concerning the definition of these things.

Secondly, in the interest of clarity, I also made a distinction between the act of forgiveness and the attitude of forgiveness. As I said there, "We should have a willingness to forgive and should not bear a grudge, but we can't forgive until someone asks."

 

[LadyEagle]

Exactly, Saggy & Brother Bob. That is what I've been saying.

On the other thread PL says forgiveness and reconciliation are the same thing. Well, if a person believes only forgiveness happens when the offender repents, I can see where reconciliation and forgiveness are the same thing.

But if forgiveness is a separate issue, (which I believe it is), then forgiveness does not necessarily bring about reconciliation, although reconciliation could happen after a catalyst of forgiveness, that is, if I forgive someone for the wrong against me, whether or not they repent, then as a result of my single action (forgiveness), they may decide to repent and we be reconciled (dual action).

Either way, once I have forgiven the other person, whether or not they repent, the results are in God's hands, I have a clear conscience before Him.

 

[LadyEagle]

Just to be clear, I have not said that forgiveness and reconciliation are the same. They are related, but not identical. My point in the other thread was that no one seemed to be interacting with the biblical data concerning the definition of these things.

Secondly, in the interest of clarity, I also made a distinction between the act of forgiveness and the attitude of forgiveness. As I said there, "We should have a willingness to forgive and should not bear a grudge, but we can't forgive until someone asks."

Ha, ha. What did you do, go back and edit? lol :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I honestly didn't see where you said that before.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well, I screwed up your poll LE.

I do believe one can forgive without being asked. I also have no trouble with forgiveness without punishment.

Forgiveness without repentence I just don't know about. I have to admit that I didn't even realize I thought differently about this aspect of forgiveness. I'm going to have to think it over a bit.

Off the top of my head though, I do believe that repentence might be necessary in some cases in order to gain forgiveness. Not that we humans don't have the capacity to forgive the wrongdoings of others to ourselves, but that we are required to forgive those wrongs without the repentance of the other party.

After all, God doesn't forgive us without repentance.

I'm thinkin' some more study is required before I can give a better answer.

 

[just-want-peace]

Just to be clear, I have not said that forgiveness and reconciliation are the same. They are related, but not identical. My point in the other thread was that no one seemed to be interacting with the biblical data concerning the definition of these things.

Secondly, in the interest of clarity, I also made a distinction between the act of forgiveness and the attitude of forgiveness. As I said there, "We should have a willingness to forgive and should not bear a grudge, but we can't forgive until someone asks."

Bolded mine

Beg to differ PL; no scripture that I've seen says anything about being willing to forgive "IF ASKED". They simply say "FORGIVE".

As SaggyWoman said, forgiveness is for the "forgiver's " benefit, not the offender. If the offender benefits from your forgivness, that's just icing on the cake, not the cake!

 

[annsni]

Our pastor did a series of messages a number of years ago about forgiveness and I remember a few things he said:

*Forgiving someone is basically taking them off our "hook" and putting them on God's "hook". In other words, leaving the hurt they caused in God's hands and leaving the consequences to Him.

*You can forgive even when someone doesn't see that they've done something wrong. You can even forgive the dead or someone who you have no contact with anymore.

*Forgiveness doesn't mean you forget what happened but that you release your right for revenge or payment.

I do think you can forgive without the other person being repentant. If you do not, I honestly think it will eat you up inside because of bitterness and anger. But when you forgive them, you are helping yourself to release that and give it to God.

 

[LadyEagle]

Bolded mine

Beg to differ PL; no scripture that I've seen says anything about being willing to forgive "IF ASKED". They simply say "FORGIVE".

As SaggyWoman said, forgiveness is for the "forgiver's " benefit, not the offender. If the offender benefits from your forgivness, that's just icing on the cake, not the cake!

That's how I see it, too - well put!

There are a lot of selfish, narcissistic people in the world who can't see beyond their own noses and go through life hurting others, sometimes intentionally, sometimes just because they are so narcissistic and may never realize they hurt someone else, so will never repent. Or they may be beyond narcissistic, completely mentally ill and over the top, never seeing they did anything wrong. One may wait a lifetime, if ever, for them to repent their wrongdoing and/or ask for forgiveness.

Say, like a child molester. If he asks for forgiveness, is it only because he got caught and is going to jail or is he really repentent. For us to make a call on that, makes us a judge of the thoughts and intents of his heart, which we have no right to do. But if the parent of the wronged child chooses to forgive, regardless of his actions, then they can have peace, knowing that God is keeping the books.

To harbor unforgiveness is to leave fertile ground for seeds of bitterness in one's heart, IMO. (Like ann said - good post, ann)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ha, ha. What did you do, go back and edit? lol

I honestly didn't see where you said that before.

That's fine ... No problem ...

 

[Pastor Larry]

Beg to differ PL; no scripture that I've seen says anything about being willing to forgive "IF ASKED". They simply say "FORGIVE".

Two verses:

Eph 4:32 ... Forgive just as God forgave you.
1 John 1:9 ... If we confess our sins ... he will forgive us our sins.

So if, as I have been saying, our forgiveness of others is based on God's forgiveness of us, then this would seem to be significant. BTW, this the position that Jay Adams talks about in his excellent (for the most part) little book entitled "From Forgiven to Forgiving." I have changed my positino on this over the years.

And I also make that firm distinction between an attitude of forgiveness (which requires no confession) and forgiveness (which requires confession).

As SaggyWoman said, forgiveness is for the "forgiver's " benefit, not the offender. If the offender benefits from your forgivness, that's just icing on the cake, not the cake!

With all due respect to Saggy, I disagree. Forgiveness has nothing to do with me. It has to do with God and the gospel. That's why we forgive just as God forgave us ... so we can show forth the glory of the gospel to the world. Most people who forgive lose ... They willfully give up their right to claim repayment. But in so doing, they glorify the gospel where God chose not to charge us with our sin and instead charged Christ with it.

 

[swaimj]

Three concepts are involved in this discussion: forgiveness, repentance, and reconciliation. As I understand their relationship forgiveness is a step that must be taken by the offended party followed by repentance on the part of the offending party and the result is reconciliation between the two. Reconciliation is the ultimate goal, but it is not always reached. Though the offended person forgives, if the offender does not repent, reconciliation becomes impossible.

Consider Jesus' statement on the cross: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Notice that Jesus does not actually forgive the sins of those who are crucifying him. He expresses his desire to do so to the Father in this statement. However, he cannot actually forgive them because they are in the act of crucifying him as he speaks. They are unrepentant and therefore cannot be reconciled to him in this circumstance. Nevertheless, Jesus expresses his desire to the Father. The Father honored this desire as the book of Acts records that many who were crucifying him later came to faith.

As Christians we must always stand ready to forgive. However, not everyone will repent of what they have done. In those cases we release them to the Father who works all things for our good and for His glory. If the offender will repent, the cross has the power to reconcile us together.

 

[Beth]

I agree

Pastor Larry said (in the Forgiveness vs Reconciliation Thread):



My view is that it only takes one person to forgive, whether or not the other person asks for forgiveness. Some people never repent when they have wronged us. Others may not even know when they have wronged us. Are we to forgive the other person regardless if they repent or only if they repent?

Scriptural reasons, please.

I'm with you on this.

 

[donnA]

We are called to forgive, no where are we told the other person must ask or want to be forgiven, or even think they have anything to be forgiven for. Forgiving has to do with us, not the other person.

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe when you are "born again", that you are born with a "forgiving" heart.

BBob,

 

[SaggyWoman]

With all due respect to Saggy, I disagree. Forgiveness has nothing to do with me. It has to do with God and the gospel. That's why we forgive just as God forgave us ... so we can show forth the glory of the gospel to the world. Most people who forgive lose ... They willfully give up their right to claim repayment. But in so doing, they glorify the gospel where God chose not to charge us with our sin and instead charged Christ with it.

A.) I can not forgive without the gospel and God.

B.) We do forgive as God fogave us.

C.) and it is to bring forth the glory of the gospel to the world.

D.) I do give up my right to claim repayment.

E.) But, in the bigger picture, it is to my benefit, because if I hang on to the bitterness and the anger and the resentment, I haven't really forgave, and I disintegrate into one bitter person.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Just a few random thoughts.
I would think forgiveness is a one person deal:
Matthew 6:14 - "For if you http://www.baptistboard.com/forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also http://www.baptistboard.com/forgive you. 15 "But if you do not http://www.baptistboard.com/forgive others , then your Father will not http://www.baptistboard.com/forgive your transgressions.
Luke 23:34 - But Jesus[SIZE=+0] was saying[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], "Father, http://www.baptistboard.com/forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] lots[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], dividing[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] up His garments[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] among[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] themselves.[/SIZE]


Forgiveness is a choice to obey a command. Trust, reconciliation and forgetting are different issues. Forgiveness is given. Trust is earned. I am not sure we can ever forget. I have used the illustration of a man cutting off my arm in a fit of anger. I can forgive him, but I may not trust him to respond correctly to anger the next time. And, certainly every time I try to reach for something, I am going to remember what happened.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Either way, once I have forgiven the other person, whether or not they repent, the results are in God's hands, I have a clear conscience before Him.

I agree 100%.

Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
They Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others...

If we do not forgive others; how can we expect God to forgive us?