Poll: The Forgiveness Thread

[Pastor Larry]

We are called to forgive, no where are we told the other person must ask or want to be forgiven, or even think they have anything to be forgiven for. Forgiving has to do with us, not the other person.

Again, I have to point out a total lack of biblical interaction. You guys talk about the Bible, but where does the Bible say that forgiveness is about me? Or that the other person doesn't have to ask for it? Does God forgive people who do not confess their sin? Doesn't the unquestioned answer have to be "No" (at least from a biblical standpoint)? Can anyone point to anywhere that forgiveness is granted by God apart from confession?

Furthemore, to make forgiveness about me is to further feed the whole self-centered nature of modern Christianity. I do not forgive for my sake. I forgive for the sake of the gospel, because God for Christ's sake has forgiven me. We do not need more self-centered Christians who say, "I will forgive so that I will feel better about it." In most cases, forgiveness does not help one to feel better. It is actually the seeds of feeling worse because you are giving up your right to treat the other person like they did it.

Remember, forgiveness is God's choosing to treat me like I had never sinned. And when I forgive others, I must treat them as if they had not done it. I must never bring it up to me, to them, or to anyone else ever again. I must not dwell on it. I must give up all claims against the other person. Why? Because that is what God has done.

So again, if we get to a biblical definition of repentance, and away from all these pop psychology definitions, I think this becomes more clear.

 

[Pastor Larry]

A.) I can not forgive without the gospel and God.

True, or at least consistently.

B.) We do forgive as God fogave us.

I think some of the answers here, including yours, are calling this into question.

C.) and it is to bring forth the glory of the gospel to the world.

Yes.

D.) I do give up my right to claim repayment.

E.) But, in the bigger picture, it is to my benefit, because if I hang on to the bitterness and the anger and the resentment, I haven't really forgave, and I disintegrate into one bitter person.

There's no doubt that the one forgiving is in some sense benefitted, but in other senses is not. But the self-focus is a major problem. To say "I have to forgive so I feel better" is a misguided proposition. We cannot forgive in hopes of feeling better or becoming bitter. We forgive because of the gospel. We say, "God forgave me for all my sins which are far worse than whatever someone has done to me. And if God forgave me, how can I not forgive you?"

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors

.

How do you want to be forgiven? Conditionally or unconditionally?


Bill

 

[LadyEagle]

It is harder to forgive a person who has not repented than it is to forgive a person who has. So that blows the accusation of forgiveness pop psychology theory out of the water.

 

[LadyEagle]

Here, PL, is another Biblical example of forgiveness before repentence from the Gospel of Luke:

18'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;

19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
20"So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and (C)embraced him and kissed him. 21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

You will notice the father saw him a long way off. Evidence that the father forgave his son is that he saw him and ran to him and embraced him and kissed him. THIS WAS BEFORE, the son repented. That father didn't know from a distance whether or not the son was sorry and repenting and coming back home to ask for forgiveness (which the father didn't ask him to do) or whether the son was coming back to get more money for the road. There ya go.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It is harder to forgive a person who has not repented than it is to forgive a person who has. So that blows the accusation of forgiveness pop psychology theory out of the water.

First, I would say it is impossible to forgive the person who has not repented, due to the very nature of forgiveness. (And I note, for the record, that no one has yet to my knowledge to address the pattern of God in this matter.) On what biblical basis is there any evidence of God's forgiveness without repentance? The passages that have been cited don't address the issue.

Second, I don't think it blows the pop psychology theory out of the water at all. In biblical forgiveness, my response has nothing to do with me. I don't forgive so I will feel better, so I won't get bitter, or anything else. I forgive because God in Christ forgave me. It has nothing to do with me and my feelings; it has to do with God and the gospel. If I forgive to feel better, or not get bitter, I have made it a selfish matter. And the gospel is simply not that.

Where in Scripture are we told to forgive so that we will feel better? Or receive some benefit from it aside from a restored relationship?

 

[Pastor Larry]

You will notice the father saw him a long way off. Evidence that the father forgave his son is that he saw him and ran to him and embraced him and kissed him. THIS WAS BEFORE, the son repented. That father didn't know from a distance whether or not the son was sorry and repenting and coming back home to ask for forgiveness (which the father didn't ask him to do) or whether the son was coming back to get more money for the road. There ya go.

First, it is a parable, and doctrine should not be established from a parable.
Second, there was no more money so the father knew he wasn't coming home for that.
Third, the Bible explicitly says that the son repented and went home (vv. 18-19). The very act of getting up and going home was an act of repentance, so the father's embrace and acceptance was after the repentance.
Fourth, the Bible never says that the father forgave him (though I think he did).

Do you have anything else?

Have you read Jay Adams book on this? Or anything else?

 

[LadyEagle]

PL, if you ever forgive someone who has wronged you and not repented, you will find it is harder to do (and requires the help of the Holy Spirit in order to do so) than to forgive someone who repents for wronging you. It is almost humanly impossible to forgive someone for a grevious wrong they have done to us, truly forgive them without their repentence, unless we have the Lord's help to do so. I reiterate: It is far easier to forgive those who repent and ask for forgiveness.

Also, if we do not forgive, we have no business taking communion, says Scripture. Unforgiveness is sin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

PL, if you ever forgive someone who has wronged you and not repented, you will find it is harder to do (and requires the help of the Holy Spirit in order to do so) than to forgive someone who repents for wronging you.

If you ever forgive someone who has not repented, you will have done the impossible. You can certainly have an attitude of forgiveness, but I don't think you can't forgive.

Also, if we do not forgive, we have no business taking communion, says Scripture. Unforgiveness is sin.

An unforgiving, grudge-bearing spirit certainly is.

But again, I have to note that you are avoiding the issue. Where does God offer forgiveness to those who have not repented?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Here's an article: http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/abasisforforgiveness.htm

I don't think Adams is entirely right, but he is mostly correct.

 

[Jon-Marc]

When are we SUPPOSED to forgive? ALL the time, every time someone does us wrong. Peter asked Jesus in Matt. 18:21 "Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him, till seven times?" In the next verse Jesus said, "I say not unto thee, until seven time, but until seventy times seven."

Can a person offend us that many times in a day? Perhaps, but Jesus was telling Peter (and us) that we are to forgive infinitely and unconditionally. However, that's easier said than done. I can forgive a person who truly repents and is sorry for what he did to me, but that's not so easy when that person sees nothing wrong in what they did and does not ask for forgiveness. I can forgive that person within myself, but I will not tell that person, "You are forgiven" when they don't think they did anything wrong for which to be forgiven. To me that is condoning what they did and saying what they did wasn't wrong.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Perhaps, but Jesus was telling Peter (and us) that we are to forgive infinitely and unconditionally.

Does God forgive unconditionally?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Did the woman at the well repent BEFORE Jesus told her to "go and sin no more"?

I am not responsible for anyone else's actions or reactions. I am only responsbile for mine.

My Bible tells me to forgive others. Whether they have repented or not is not for me to judge and does not change what God told me to do.

It is easy to forgive one who is repentant, but as LE points out, we need the help of the Holy Spirit to forgive one who has hurt you and has not repented.

When I do that, I am in the will of God. I have done my part. Now the action belongs to the unrepentant, but whether they have repented or not is not my responsibility - it is that persons. My only responsibility is to forgive - unconditionally.

I have forgiven many people who have hurt me and it frees me from any guilt associated with their actions.

Many times I have had to pray, "God, I am forgiving this person as an act of my will, please help me to pray for them until the forgiveness comes from my heart".

 

[Pastor Larry]

Did the woman at the well repent BEFORE Jesus told her to "go and sin no more"?

He didn't tell the woman at the well that (John 4). He told the woman taken in adultery that (John 8). And this brings up the question, how do you know she did not repent? Why would Christ have forgiven her apart from repentance?

This continues to be the issue that no one seems willing to deal with. Where in Scripture does God forgive people without their confession and repentance?

My Bible tells me to forgive others. Whether they have repented or not is not for me to judge and does not change what God told me to do.

But given the biblical nature of repentance, it is impossible without confession.

It is easy to forgive one who is repentant, but as LE points out,

Some here I fear have never been hurt very much, or don't understand forgiveness, if they say it is easy.

I have had to pray, "God, I am forgiving this person as an act of my will, please help me to pray for them until the forgiveness comes from my heart".

I wonder if this is not a false dichotomy that, again, misunderstands the nature of forgiveness. It is always an act of the will ... choosing to treat someone as if they had not done it.

I think this view that is being espoused is undermining sin by making it something that doesn't need to be dealt with. So long as the offended party can "get over it," there is no need for confession and restitution and reconciliation. I think that is a very dangerous road to go down.

 

[swaimj]

Where in Scripture does God forgive people without their confession and repentance?

In Jesus' statement "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" we find Jesus' response to people who are not repentant. Jesus does not grant them forgiveness, but he releases them to the Father. He asks the Father to forgive them, and we find in the book of Acts that, at least in some cases, the Father does bring them to repentance and salvation.

I conclude from this that we do not actually forgive people who are unrepentant. Indeed we cannot forgive an unrepentant person. However, we exercise what we might call a partial forgiveness in which we do not continue to hold a grudge against them. Rather, we continue to pray that God will bring them to repentance so that reconciliation can occur, and we release them to God's work in their life which will either end in their repentance or their judgement.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well said ...

In Jesus' statement "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" we find Jesus' response to people who are not repentant. Jesus does not grant them forgiveness, but he releases them to the Father.

Exactly.

He asks the Father to forgive them, and we find in the book of Acts that, at least in some cases, the Father does bring them to repentance and salvation.

Exactly, but he does not forgive them apart from repentance.

However, we exercise what we might call a partial forgiveness in which we do not continue to hold a grudge against them.

This is what I have called the spirit of forgiveness. It is not forgiveness, but an attitude that is willing to grant forgiveness upon repentance.

 

[swaimj]

This is what I have called the spirit of forgiveness.

Yes. I like your term better.

 

[swaimj]

So, forgiveness is not an end unto itself. Rather, it is a step in a process whose ultimate goal is reconciliation. The middle step which must occur on the path from forgiveness to reconciliation is repentance on the part of the person who has done the wrong. Without this step, forgiveness is in spirit and remains an offer, but it does not result in the ultimate goal of reconciliation.

 

[just-want-peace]

So, forgiveness is not an end unto itself. Rather, it is a step in a process whose ultimate goal is reconciliation. The middle step which must occur on the path from forgiveness to reconciliation is repentance on the part of the person who has done the wrong. Without this step, forgiveness is in spirit and remains an offer, but it does not result in the ultimate goal of reconciliation.

But if there is absolutely no chance for a reconciliation, (death, for instance) how can there be forgiveness?

From the varying ideas of "forgiveness", I'm seeing diverse (well, a couple anyway) definitions of the term. I can see the point of reconciliation being the end goal of forgiveness -- but I have never understood forgiveness to be JUST a part of a "process", but an end in itself.

In the sense that reconciliation cannot be attained sans forgiveness is one thing, but forgiveness is first & foremost, IMHO, an action (by will first and then the heart, just like love), that benefits the one doing the forgiving - regardless of its effects on the offender.

Reconciliation, on the other hand is something that ALL parties have to be a part of.

My understanding of FORGIVENESS is that it is an action by a person, by will and/or heart, that releases the normal human urge to hold a personal "hurt, grudge, ill will," or whatever term suits you, against someone who, in your opinion, has wounded you in some physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual manner.

Now while forgiveness will be necessary for reconciliation, it is not necessary that the other party repent or even care, for the effects of forgiveness to affect you.

There is, IMHO, a big difference in forgiving another, AND the need of receiving forgiveness, and I think there seems to be some mixing of the two on this thread.

So, with this concept, I will continue to forgive when necessary regardless of the other party's action.

His desire for forgiveness, his repentance are totally irrelevent to my action of forgiving.:thumbs::godisgood:

 

[Pastor Larry]

JWP,

Where, in your whole discussion of forgiveness, is a discussion of God's forgiveness as the pattern for ours?

Again, I am repeating myself, but what I am seeing is people coming up with ideas of forgiveness that are not rooted in the forgiveness of God in Christ. And that, I think, is a major problem. We can't "roll our own" theology about forgiveness. We have to get it out of Scripture.